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Thread: Urdu: قسم لينا

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    Urdu: قسم لينا

    Hello,

    Can qasam lenaa be used in the same way as qasam khaanaa or does it only mean to take/obtain an oath (from someone)?

    Examples:

    3adālat meN Omar se qasam lenaa

    Khudaa kii qasam lenaa


    Are both sentences correct or does khaanaa have to be substituted in the second sentence?

    شکريه

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Greetings,

    qasam lenaa means "to make someone swear/to require someone take an oath." It does not mean the same as qasam khaanaa, just the opposite, but qasam khilaanaa may be equalled in meaning with qasam lenaa.

    The examples should be seen to keeping this in mind.

    عدالت میں عمر سے قسم لینا ہو گا۔
    3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa (ho gaa)
    : {It will be needed) to administer an oath to Omar in the court.

    xudaa kii qasam lenaa خدا کی قسم لینا does not sound right. It should be only and exclusively xudaa kii qasam khaanaa, i.e. to swear by God. As you can see the syntax is also not right in the second case because as a verb, qasam lenaa is governed by the postposition se, unlike qasam khaanaa which goes with kii, like kisii kii qasam khaanaa=to swear by something/someone.

    So your proposition to substitute khaanaa in the second sentence is absolutely right.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    ^ I agree with you marrish SaaHib, we wouldn't say xudaa kii qasam lenaa خدا کی قسم لینا !! BTW, qasam is treated as feminine in our speech - also seen in a number of Urdu lexicons, but in my 20th Urdu dictionary printed in Delhi it is treated as masculine. So from our point of view the sentence would be: 3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Thank you for confirmation, sometimes it feels odd if there is only one answer without any follow-up. qasam for us is also feminine, plural qasameN but I tend to use the masculine [as default] verb in such constructions. I don't know whether this is correct, I think so, but it is certainly not very common. You are of course perfectly right to point it out and my way of saying it should not be emulated, especially by people who learn Urdu! I remember it was discussed somewhere and I will try to look for that thread to link it here.

    Link: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2327406, the post where CM Naim is quoted, see third option.
    Last edited by marrish; 29th June 2013 at 3:48 PM.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Ι might be misunderstanding you marrish SaaHib but it appears to me that Faylasoof SaaHib is not talking about the main verb (in this case "lenaa" or "lenii" for a feminine subject) but the auxiliary verb, "ho jaanaa" in the quoted sentence. Because "qasam" is feminine, we must use "ho gii" and NOT "ho gaa".

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    Ι might be misunderstanding you marrish SaaHib but it appears to me that Faylasoof SaaHib is not talking about the main verb (in this case "lenaa" or "lenii" for a feminine subject) but the auxiliary verb, "ho jaanaa" in the quoted sentence. Because "qasam" is feminine, we must use "ho gii" and NOT "ho gaa".
    We are on the same wave length, all three of us. For me there is no question of putting lenaa to lenii and I know Faylasoof SaaHib drew my attention to "ho gaa".

    Please consider the following, leaving lenii or lenaa aside, as there is no contention about it (emphasis mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    C.M.Naim (from Barabanki) in his introduction to "Introductory Urdu, 3rd edition published in 1999 by University of Chicago" states the following when talking about differences between Hindi and Urdu. "In another indirect construction, Hindi usually has the infinitive, functioning as a complement, agreeing with the grammatical subject of the verb; Urdu, however, commonly has two more possibilities

    Hindi: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN Khariidnii haiN
    ...........................................................
    Urdu: mujhe kuchh kitaabeN (plural) Khariidnii haiN (plural)
    : mujhe kuchh kitaabeN (plural) Khariidnaa haiN (plural)
    : mujhe kuchh kitaabeN (plural) Khariidnaa hai (singular)
    Following this pattern, using plural qasameN so that we get full compatibility, we can get:

    1) (mujhe, jaj ko...) 3umar se qasameN lenii haiN --- full agreement in gender and number of all parts of the verb.
    2) 3umar se qasameN lenaa haiN --- partial agreement in gender and number, the infinitive remaining default masculine sg.
    3) 3umar se qasameN lenaa hai --- no agreement of the noun with the verb, the whole of the verb being default masculine sg.

    Per analogy,

    1) 3umar se qasam lenii ho gii. (full agreement)
    2) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii. (partial agreement)
    3) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa. (no agreement)

    As a side note, I don't quite understand why you said the auxiliary verb was 'ho jaanaa'?

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    We are on the same wave length, all three of us. For me there is no question of putting lenaa to lenii and I know Faylasoof SaaHib drew my attention to "ho gaa".

    Please consider the following, leaving lenii or lenaa aside, as there is no contention about it (emphasis mine):

    Following this pattern, using plural qasameN so that we get full compatibility, we can get:

    1) (mujhe, jaj ko...) 3umar se qasameN lenii haiN --- full agreement in gender and number of all parts of the verb.
    2) 3umar se qasameN lenaa haiN --- partial agreement in gender and number, the infinitive remaining default masculine sg.
    3) 3umar se qasameN lenaa hai --- no agreement of the noun with the verb, the whole of the verb being default masculine sg.

    Per analogy,

    1) 3umar se qasam lenii ho gii. (full agreement)
    2) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii. (partial agreement)
    3) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa. (no agreement)

    As a side note, I don't quite understand why you said the auxiliary verb was 'ho jaanaa'?
    We might be going off topic but "hai" or "haiN" can not be termed as "masculine" for they do not display any gender. Whereas your "ho gaa" does and it is masculine when it should be feminine "ho gii" being linked to qasam.

    C.M. Naim, in his third example is disconnecting the verb from the noun "kitaabeN" and hence is using "hai" instead of "haiN!". To superimpose his sentence on what you are trying to say, we would get..

    3umar se qasameN lenaa ho gii....where, based on the second option we would have..

    3umar se qasameN lenaa hoN gii

    As far as my understanding goes, we can not deduce...

    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa... from Naim's third example.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Normally, when we take the second example from Naim and change the tense from present to future, we will end up with:

    mujhe kitaabeN xariidnaa hoN gii. In this case you are right in transposing it to 3umar se qasameN lenaa hoN gii. Here the auxiliary verb is linked in agreement with kitaabeN and qasameN, while the infinitive remains in its default form, uninflected.

    With regard to the third example from Naim, you are also right to note that the verb is disconnected from kitaabeN (pl.) so we get hai (sg.) instead of haiN (pl). I can follow the argument that the gender is not semantically obvious from the auxiliary hai or haiN in Urdu but still what is certain is that there is no more agreement in number between the plural noun and conjugated verb form!

    Returning to C.M. Naim's third example, mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) xariidnaa hai (default m. sg.)--->mujhe kuchh (m.sg.)xariidnaa hai (default m.sg)--->mujhe kitaab (f.sg.) xariidnaa hai (default m.sg.)--->mujhe qalam (m.sg.) xariidnaa hai (def. m.sg.).

    From this line of reasoning it is evident that the construction 'dative+inf.(default)+auxilliary verb' remains unchanged default m.sg., no matter what the object(s) (do kitaabeN, ek qalam, das lifaafe or ek dawaat) might be.

    Further on, if we change the tense of the auxiliary verb, we will get: qalam xariidnaa ho gaa and tiin qalam xariidnaa ho gaa. kitaab xariidnaa ho gaa and kitaabeN xariidnaa ho gaa. If we follow the possibility that is given to us by the amorphous nature of haiN or hai, that is the noun being disconnected from the auxiliary verb only with regard to number but not to gender, we would have to say *mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) lenaa ho gii (f.sg.)*! And this would be a really interesting case.

    I hope I have been somewhat clearer this time.

    Addition: I've been able to find one example on the net: programming siikhne ke liye ibtidaa meN aap ko qasam lenaa ho gaa kih ... پروگرامنگ سیکھنے کے لیے ابتدا میں آپ کو قسم لینا ہوگا کہ . My commentary: 1) please note the wrong usage of qasam lenaa which is the topic of this thread! It is the influence of English idiom ''to take an oath''!!! 2) together with 1) it does not appear to be a reliable example to follow 3) the verb is masculine but it still does not prove my reasoning as F. SaaHib has mentioned the gender shift in one dictionary!
    Last edited by marrish; 29th June 2013 at 10:15 PM.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Addition: I've been able to find one example on the net: programming siikhne ke liye ibtidaa meN aap ko qasam lenaa ho gaa kih ... پروگرامنگ سیکھنے کے لیے ابتدا میں آپ کو قسم لینا ہوگا کہ . My commentary: 1) please note the wrong usage of qasam lenaa which is the topic of this thread! It is the influence of English idiom ''to take an oath''!!!
    There's also ḥalf lenā (mentioned in Platts), which could have led to qasam lenā in this context. Do you think both are examples of English influence? Maybe someone can verify the oldest usage of ḥalf lenā in Urdu. Which dictionary are the dates listed in?

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    There's also ḥalf lenā (mentioned in Platts), which could have led to qasam lenā in this context. Do you think both are examples of English influence? Maybe someone can verify the oldest usage of ḥalf lenā in Urdu. Which dictionary are the dates listed in?
    Indeed, Half lenaa has similar meaning to qasam khaanaa but their usage is different. I will have to investigate the possibility of English influence on Half lenaa but it seems unlikely that Half lenaa has influenced people to confuse qasam khaanaa with qasam lenaa. After all, the standard and most current verb is Half uThaanaa, not Half lenaa. I promise to return to this tomorrow, it's very late now.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    By the way, since no one mentioned it, there is also qasam dena which is synonymous with qasam uThaanaa / khaanaa.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Although the topic of the thread is indeed qasam lenaa we can discuss other ways qasam is used in compound verbs in order to clarify / inform how the word gets used. I think it is OK.

    Bu to keep things simple (and try not to go off-topic):

    In most Urdu lexicons qasam is treated as feminine though I did find an exception so far (my post above).

    1) If we go with the feminine gender (the majority) then it has to be:
    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii
    Just like: mujhe kitaab xariidnaa* / lenaa* ho gii.
    (But also this : mujhe kitaab xariidnii / lenii ho gii)

    2) If there are people treating it as a masculine noun, then:
    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa <--- sounds odd to me as I fall in the first group!
    Just like: mujhe juutaa xariidnaa / lenaa ho gaa -- (juutaa [shoe] being masculine).

    But juutii [slipper] we treat as feminine, so the sentence becomes:
    mujhe juutii xariidnaa* / lenaa* ho gii
    (But also this : mujhe juutii xariidnii / lenii ho gii)

    * In our speech and found commonly elsewhere too. I don't want to go into the discussion of xariidnaa vs. xariidnii and lenaa vs. lenii because we have already done this in at least one other thread quite comprehensively.

    But the point is that if we treat qasam as feminine (most Urduphones I've come across seem to do so and most Urdu lexicons also indicate the same) then the sentence under discussion (3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa) has to end in ho gii, just as for the kitaab example in (1) above, i.e. 3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii.

    Just for the sake of completeness, here is how qasam is used in compound verbs:
    قسم دينا qasam denaa = قسم لينا qasam lenaa = to administer an oath; put somebody under oath.
    قسم دلانا qasam dilaana = to make someone swear an oath.
    قسم كهانا qasam khaanaa = to swear; to take an oath.
    (... and there is also of course قسم توڑنا = qasam toRnaa = to commit perjury, perjure oneself ; to violate an oath).
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    There's also ḥalf lenā (mentioned in Platts), which could have led to qasam lenā in this context. Do you think both are examples of English influence? Maybe someone can verify the oldest usage of ḥalf lenā in Urdu. Which dictionary are the dates listed in?
    Yes, we have Half lenaa listed in Platts but whether this and qasam lenaa are due to English influence would require digging deeper not just in Urdu usage but also in Arabic since in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) I have seen أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half = (lit.) oath-taking. Not sure about Classical Arabic though.

    In Urdu these are much more common usages of Half: خلف اٹھانا Half uThaanaa = to swear / to take an oath; حلف دینا Half dena = to administer an oath.

    حَلْف Half = oath = قسم qasam = سَو گَنْد suagand (discussed here). حَلْف Half came into written Urdu usage in 1880, قسم qasam in 1707 and سوگند suagand in 1564. This, quite reliable, online dictionary gives the dates but all Urdu usage and chronology ultimately rely on the 22 volume "urduu luGhat" (reported here) that was finally published in and around July 2010 citing the earliest references possible.
    Last edited by Faylasoof; 1st July 2013 at 1:26 AM.
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilquiestsuens View Post
    By the way, since no one mentioned it, there is also qasam dena which is synonymous with qasam uThaanaa / khaanaa.
    Are people using qasam uThaanaa? qasam khaanaa and Half uThaanaa is how we use them and how I see these being used by most.
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post
    Are people using qasam uThaanaa? qasam khaanaa and Half uThaanaa is how we use them and how I see these being used by most.
    I would suggest that "qasam uThaanaa" is a direct translation from the Punjabi "qasam chukNRaa". In Punjabi, one of the contestants in a dispute might say to the other (i.e. in a school play ground!) "chukk qasam" which would translate to "uThaa qasam!"

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Indeed, Half lenaa has similar meaning to qasam khaanaa but their usage is different. I will have to investigate the possibility of English influence on Half lenaa but it seems unlikely that Half lenaa has influenced people to confuse qasam khaanaa with qasam lenaa. After all, the standard and most current verb is Half uThaanaa, not Half lenaa. I promise to return to this tomorrow, it's very late now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post
    Yes, we have Half lenaa listed in Platts but whether this and qasam lenaa are due to English influence would require digging deeper not just in Urdu usage but also in Arabic since in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) I have seen أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half = (lit.) oath-taking. Not sure about Classical Arabic though.

    In Urdu these are much more common usages of Half: خلف اٹھانا Half uThaanaa = to swear / to take an oath; حلف دینا Half dena = to administer an oath.

    حَلْف Half = oath = قسم qasam = سَو گَنْد suagand (discussed here). حَلْف Half came into written Urdu usage in 1880, قسم qasam in 1707 and سوگند suagand in 1564. This, quite reliable, online dictionary gives the dates but all Urdu usage and chronology ultimately rely on the 22 volume "urduu luGhat" (reported here) that was finally published in and around July 2010 citing the earliest references possible.
    Faylasoof SaaHib, you are right saying that the ultimate authority on Urdu usage is currently the voluminous Urdu Lughat, the fruit of labour of love of many decades. Unfortunately I don't have access to it. A certain dictionary which predates that of Platts recorded Half uThaanaa as we know it very well together with Half lenaa. For the oath administration the following are recorded: Half denaa, Half uThwaanaa. With regard to ''duly putting someone under oath" there is Hasb-e-zaabitah Half diyaa gayaa.

    With saugand we get the same set of verbs which we have already discussed above (welll, apart from uThaanaa!). There is also saugand se kahnaa.

    As we can see there is different set of verbs for qasam and different for Half. This is circumstantial evidence that they are not influenced by English phrases, whereas *qasam lenaa* for "to take an oath" appears to be, in particular because it is not found in lexicons with this meaning and as we know the influence of English has been growing.
    Last edited by Faylasoof; 1st July 2013 at 1:09 AM. Reason: Typo in my quote!

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    A certain dictionary which predates that of Platts [...]
    Do you remember which dictionary?

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    Do you remember which dictionary?
    Yes I do know as I retyped the contents from it. It is one of Fallon's dictionaries which is not available online. The reference I gave was merely intended to discuss the issue of possible influences, which I believe has been convincingly presented in the above post.
    Last edited by marrish; 1st July 2013 at 1:10 AM.

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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Faylasoof SaaHib, you are right saying that the ultimate authority on Urdu usage is currently the voluminous Urdu Lughat, the fruit of labour of love of many decades. Unfortunately I don't have access to it. A certain dictionary which predates that of Platts recorded Half uThaanaa as we know it very well together with Half lenaa. For the oath administration the following are recorded: Half denaa, Half uThwaanaa. With regard to ''duly putting someone under oath" there is Hasb-e-zaabitah Half diyaa gayaa.

    With saugand we get the same set of verbs which we have already discussed above (welll, apart from uThaanaa!). There is also saugand se kahnaa.

    As we can see there is different set of verbs for qasam and different for Half. This is circumstantial evidence that they are not influenced by English phrases, whereas *qasam lenaa* for "to take an oath" appears to be, in particular because it is not found in lexicons with this meaning and as we know the influence of English has been growing.
    Yes, I know about this! (Please see below).
    Now, I would not dispute the growing English influence but this may not be so easy to determine since, as I mention above, the Arabic أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half is there (even axaza-l-Half might exist, i.e. use of the verb!) and we need to look into this.

    For saugand we have:

    سوگند دینا suagand dena = to administer an oath (= Persian سوگند دادن saugand daadan)
    سوگند كھانا suagand khaanaa = to swear / take an oath. ( = Persian سوگند یاد كردن \ خوردن suagand yaad kardan / xurdan)
    These Persian usages are where we got our qasam khaanaa etc. from

    There is also سوگند شكسنی suagand shikanii used in elevated Urdu for perjury.

    I haven't heard saugand se khaanaa. We would never use it either.
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post
    Yes, I know about this! (Please see below).
    Now, I would not dispute the growing English influence but this may not be so easy to determine since, as I mention above, the Arabic أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half is there (even axaza-l-Half might exist, i.e. use of the verb!) and we need to look into this.

    For saugand we have:

    سوگند دینا suagand dena = to administer an oath (= Persian سوگند دادن saugand daadan)
    سوگند كھانا suagand khaanaa = to swear / take an oath. ( = Persian سوگند یاد كردن \ خوردن suagand yaad kardan / xurdan)
    These Persian usages are where we got our qasam khaanaa etc. from

    There is also سوگند شكنی suagand shikanii used in elevated Urdu for perjury.

    I haven't heard saugand se khaanaa. We would never use it either.
    Yes, it is obvious that the use of particular verbs reflects those used in Persian. Faylasoof SaaHib, I have been unable to figure out with which verb حلف is/was used in Persian.
    I didn't say saugand se khaanaa سوگند سے کھانا! I said saugand se kahnaa سوگند سے کہنا!

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