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Thread: Urdu: قسم لينا

  1. #41
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Regarding qasam lenaa ho gaa or ho gii:
    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Normally, when we take the second example from Naim and change the tense from present to future, we will end up with:

    mujhe kitaabeN xariidnaa hoN gii. In this case you are right in transposing it to 3umar se qasameN lenaa hoN gii. Here the auxiliary verb is linked in agreement with kitaabeN and qasameN, while the infinitive remains in its default form, uninflected.

    With regard to the third example from Naim, you are also right to note that the verb is disconnected from kitaabeN (pl.) so we get hai (sg.) instead of haiN (pl). I can follow the argument that the gender is not semantically obvious from the auxiliary hai or haiN in Urdu but still what is certain is that there is no more agreement in number between the plural noun and conjugated verb form!

    Returning to C.M. Naim's third example, mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) xariidnaa hai (default m. sg.)--->mujhe kuchh (m.sg.)xariidnaa hai (default m.sg)--->mujhe kitaab (f.sg.) xariidnaa hai (default m.sg.)--->mujhe qalam (m.sg.) xariidnaa hai (def. m.sg.).

    From this line of reasoning it is evident that the construction 'dative+inf.(default)+auxilliary verb' remains unchanged default m.sg., no matter what the object(s) (do kitaabeN, ek qalam, das lifaafe or ek dawaat) might be.

    Further on, if we change the tense of the auxiliary verb, we will get: qalam xariidnaa ho gaa and tiin qalam xariidnaa ho gaa. kitaab xariidnaa ho gaa and kitaabeN xariidnaa ho gaa. If we follow the possibility that is given to us by the amorphous nature of haiN or hai, that is the noun being disconnected from the auxiliary verb only with regard to number but not to gender, we would have to say *mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) lenaa ho gii (f.sg.)*! And this would be a really interesting case.

    I hope I have been somewhat clearer this time.
    In another thread these sentences were quoted from Allama Nazm Tabatabai of Lakhnau (if you follow the link, there will be more information available).

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    ہاں، ہندو اگر یہ کوشش کریں کہ بھاکا میں جتنے فارسی اسماء مل گئے ہیں اُن کو اِس زبان سے نکال ڈالیں تو اِن کو نئی زبان بنانا پڑے گا۔

    Another similar example..

    اُن لوگوں کا شاعر ہونا توکجا اُنھیں اچھی طرح بات کرنا بھی نہیں آتا۔
    Transliteration: haaN, hinduu agar yih koshish kareN kih bhaakaa meN jitne faarsii asmaa2 mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa.

    un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa.

    zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa is exactly the same way of saying things like qasam lenaa ho gaa.
    Both zabaan and qasam are singular feminine nouns. Both bananaa and lenaa are infinitives in their singular masculine form. qasam lenaa ho gaa is almost the same as qasam lenaa paRe gaa and both zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa and qasam lenaa ho gaa display the default masculine singular verb.

  2. #42
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Shukriyah for the examples, marrish SaaHib! qasam lenaa ho gaa is interesting.

  3. #43
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Does anyone know the answer to my question below?

    Quote Originally Posted by urdustan View Post
    Do you know what the difference is between qasam dena & qasam dilaanaa?

  4. #44
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by urdustan View Post
    Does anyone know the answer to my question below?
    This is what the dictionary has to say about it:

    qasam dilānā (-ko), To administer an oath (to), to make (one) swear:qasam denā (-ko), To administer an oath (to); to adjure; to conjure (by, -se); to place or put under an oath of prohibition, to place or put under a ban:

    qasam denaa has already been described in the previous posts; qasam dilaanaa basically means the same but it is less frequently used and it is a sort of, I would say, putting an obligation on someone, causing one to be obliged to do or not to do something.

  5. #45
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    This is what the dictionary has to say about it:

    qasam dilānā (-ko), To administer an oath (to), to make (one) swear:qasam denā (-ko), To administer an oath (to); to adjure; to conjure (by, -se); to place or put under an oath of prohibition, to place or put under a ban:

    qasam denaa has already been described in the previous posts; qasam dilaanaa basically means the same but it is less frequently used and it is a sort of, I would say, putting an obligation on someone, causing one to be obliged to do or not to do something.
    Thank you marrish SaaHib! Would you say qasam khilaanaa is also the same thing? I think that's what I most commonly hear.

  6. #46
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    We are on the same wave length, all three of us. For me there is no question of putting lenaa to lenii and I know Faylasoof SaaHib drew my attention to "ho gaa".

    Please consider the following, leaving lenii or lenaa aside, as there is no contention about it (emphasis mine):

    Following this pattern, using plural qasameN so that we get full compatibility, we can get:

    1) (mujhe, jaj ko...) 3umar se qasameN lenii haiN --- full agreement in gender and number of all parts of the verb.
    2) 3umar se qasameN lenaa haiN --- partial agreement in gender and number, the infinitive remaining default masculine sg.
    3) 3umar se qasameN lenaa hai --- no agreement of the noun with the verb, the whole of the verb being default masculine sg.

    Per analogy,

    1) 3umar se qasam lenii ho gii. (full agreement)
    2) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii. (partial agreement)
    3) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa. (no agreement)

    As a side note, I don't quite understand why you said the auxiliary verb was 'ho jaanaa'?
    marrish SaaHib, I will have to accept a delayed reaction! I agree with you wholeheartedly that the sentence...

    3adaalat meN jaj ko 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa maps exactly with C.M. Naim's third example. Let me repeat those examples, adding past and future element to them.

    1) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnii haiN/thiiN/hoN gii (This form is what is the norm in Dehlavii Urdu and Hindi)

    2) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa haiN/thiiN/hoN gii (This form is the one our Faylasoof SaaHib adheres to....and I must confess that if I was n't using form 1) based on my Punjabi instincts, I would be most comfortable with form 2)

    3) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa.

    To make things easy, let us change the plural noun to the singular.

    1) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnii hai/thii/ho gii

    2) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnaa hai/thii/ho gii

    3) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa

    This is equivalent to

    3adaalat meN jaj ko 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa

    It is this very pattern that Allamah Ali Haider Nazm Tabatabai (hailing from Lucknow) is employing when he says in "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabai"...

    in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa and

    unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa

    It is obvious from this pattern that it matters not whether we have xat likhnaa, kabaab khaanaa or chiTThii likhnaa and roTii khaanaa, the main verb is taken as a masculine noun and it finds concord with the secondary verb in the masculine format.

  7. #47
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by urdustan View Post
    Hello,

    Can qasam lenaa be used in the same way as qasam khaanaa or does it only mean to take/obtain an oath (from someone)?

    Examples:

    3adālat meN Omar se qasam lenaa

    Khudaa kii qasam lenaa


    Are both sentences correct or does khaanaa have to be substituted in the second sentence?

    شکريه
    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا

  8. #48
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا
    Quresh jii, can you transliterate what you wrote please?

    On Urdu news mostly "Halaf" is used and not "qasam".

    Ex: "Vaziir-e-3azam ne Xudaa kaa Halaf uThaayaa thaa".
    Last edited by mundiya; 18th January 2014 at 3:20 AM.

  9. #49
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by mundiya View Post
    Quresh jii, can you transliterate what you wrote please?

    On Urdu news mostly "Halaf" is used and not "qasam".

    Ex: "Vaziir-e-3azam ne Xudaa kaa Halaf uThaayaa thaa".
    Of course! The pleasure will be all mine.

    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا

    ek bhuukaa shaxs qaazii ke yahaaN gayaa. kahne lagaa maiN bhuukaa huuN, mujhe kuchh do to maiN khaa'uuN. qaazii ne kahaa yih qaazii kaa ghar hai. qasam khaa aur chalaa jaa!

    mundiyaa jii, Halaf is not used because one has "Halaf uThaanaa" whereas it works with "qasam khaanaa" because he is after something to eat. I hope this makes sense.

  10. #50
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by mundiya View Post
    Ex: "Vaziir-e-3azam ne Xudaa kaa Halaf uThaayaa thaa".
    unheN laakh laakh Half uThaane deN vuh to magar apnii qasamoN par aur vuh jis bhii kii kyoN na hoN utarne kaa soch hii nahiiN rahe hote!

  11. #51
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    Of course! The pleasure will be all mine.

    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا

    ek bhuukaa shaxs qaazii ke yahaaN gayaa. kahne lagaa maiN bhuukaa huuN, mujhe kuchh do to maiN khaa'uuN. qaazii ne kahaa yih qaazii kaa ghar hai. qasam khaa aur chalaa jaa!

    mundiyaa jii, Halaf is not used because one has "Halaf uThaanaa" whereas it works with "qasam khaanaa" because he is after something to eat. I hope this makes sense.
    shukriyah Quresh jii. It does make sense. I have heard these types of clever puns before. Very nice.

  12. #52
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    unheN laakh laakh Half uThaane deN vuh to magar apnii qasamoN par aur vuh jis bhii kii kyoN na hoN utarne kaa soch hii nahiiN rahe hote!
    aap ne bilkul sach bolaa marrish jii.

  13. #53
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    I heard qasam lenaa (rabb kii qasam le) in a Bollywood movie that I watched today.

  14. #54
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by mundiya View Post
    aap ne bilkul sach bolaa kahaa marrish jii.
    LOL, I think I was half asleep!

    Quote Originally Posted by urdustan View Post
    I heard qasam lenaa (rabb kii qasam le) in a Bollywood movie that I watched today.
    This usage of "qasam lenaa" is correct in Hindi but less common than "qasam khaanaa". However, in Urdu it is incorrect as others have explained.

  15. #55
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by mundiya View Post
    [...]This usage of "qasam lenaa" is correct in Hindi but less common than "qasam khaanaa". However, in Urdu it is incorrect as others have explained.
    Just to throw a spanner in the works, here is a shi3r attributed to Bahadur Shah Zafar.

    dil-o-jaaN, diin-o-iimaaN, jo lenaa hai sanam lelo
    kareN ge 3uzr dene meN nah ham, chaaho qasam le lo


  16. #56
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    Just to throw a spanner in the works, here is a shi3r attributed to Bahadur Shah Zafar.

    dil-o-jaaN, diin-o-iimaaN, jo lenaa hai sanam lelo
    kareN ge 3uzr dene meN nah ham, chaaho qasam le lo

    I interpret this to be an example of (mujh se) qasam le lo and different from (rabb kii) qasam le lo.

  17. #57
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by urdustan View Post
    I interpret this to be an example of (mujh se) qasam le lo and different from (rabb kii) qasam le lo.
    One normally swears by invoking God. I swear by x, x being xudaa, Allah, rabb, Raam, bhagvaan. I know one can say...tumhaarii qasam and the like.

  18. #58
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    Re: Urdu: قسم لينا

    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    One normally swears by invoking God. I swear by x, x being xudaa, Allah, rabb, Raam, bhagvaan. I know one can say...tumhaarii qasam and the like.
    From the context of the shi3r, doesn't it seem he offers to be <put on oath> in order to prove his sincerity to his beloved? That was the reason I interpreted chaaho qasam le lo as chaaho (mujh se) qasam le lo or <if you wish, put me on oath>.

    Courtesy of Platts
    qasam khānā (-), To take an oath, to swear (by); to make a solemn declaration, to asseverate
    qasam lenā (-se), To put on oath, to require one to take an oath, to have (one) sworn
    Last edited by urdustan; 4th September 2014 at 8:04 AM.

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