Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 216

Thread: Sexism in the World

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North East USA
    Native language
    British English
    Age
    51
    Posts
    6,246

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Oh, please. If a woman is not able to carry weights, then why would she want a job doing so? If she is, then why should she not have a job doing so? Lifting weights does not "kill a woman's reproductive abilities". Further, a woman may not want to reproduce. I can hardly believe I am reading such material in this Forum. This is not just directed at the posts of setwale charm.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    moving around - a Brit who's hardly ever lived in the UK
    Native language
    British English, Russian
    Age
    38
    Posts
    6,300

    Re: Sexism in the World

    It`s a pity Emma you did not see those women in the Third World (and they were there in the middle of the past century in the Soviet land) who had to perform such jobs as carrying enormous weights (men were not there) and what happened to them after that. That normally would not happen to men although there are certainly ways to ruin anybody`s health with certain tasks, you can ask any doctor for that.
    Besides. I do not see what your objection is. Nobody`s talking about a woman wanting or not wanting a job like this, she is free to choose as are men who might want or not want to do something traditionally "female" we are talking about the fact that men and women are just physically different in some respects and were made such. This does not in any way affect the amount of respect or rights which are given to anybody. If you don`t like it, please refer your complaint to Mother Nature.
    It takes great courage to speak out loud about things which on the quiet are known to everybody.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North East USA
    Native language
    British English
    Age
    51
    Posts
    6,246

    Re: Sexism in the World

    I am well aware that many women and men have been, and are, forced to do things that are detrimental to their health.

    We are, indeed, talking about men/women having or not having the "right" to choose, depending on gender. That is why the thread is entitled "Sexism in the World", not "Are Men and Women Physically Different".

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    moving around - a Brit who's hardly ever lived in the UK
    Native language
    British English, Russian
    Age
    38
    Posts
    6,300

    Re: Sexism in the World

    I was simply elaboratinh on DanielFranco`s and Etcetera`s observations
    It takes great courage to speak out loud about things which on the quiet are known to everybody.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Native language
    Greek Greece
    Posts
    5,337

    Re: Sexism in the World

    One of the most blatant examples of sexism I ever encountered is the following:
    (this part is just for giving context) We were talking about women in the police-force and someone said that he thought that police women should not be on beat because they didn't have the physical ability to subdue big guys. When I replied that
    a) there are women who are more than able to do so as their physiology (height, musculature etc) is equal if not better than most policemen's I've seen and
    b) women who know martial arts well enough to subdue a charging bull

    (that's the sexist part) I was told that "muscular women or too aggressive (!!) women are simply not women". I found out later on that he was not alone in thinking so.
    “I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.” ~ Jerome K. Jerome

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Native language
    english USA
    Age
    67
    Posts
    508

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Poetic Device View Post
    While PMing a new-found friend, I somehow or another got on the topic of sexism, meaning judging a person based soley on the fact that they are male or female. I went on to this thread to see if anyone had ideas, and though the topic was close to what I had in mind it wasn't quite what I was thinking.

    Here are my thoughts. A lot of peole think that women should not be in military combat because (to put it bluntly) the war will not stop hjust because her Aunt Flo decided to pay her a visit. Others don't think that a man should be a beautician or a nurse or a secretary because that is not manly enough. There are times where a person won't get a job because they are of a certain gender.

    My questions to you are these:

    1. Does this happen in your culture? How often? Can you give examples?
    2. Do you personally believe in the idea that there a some things a man can do that a woman cannot and visa versa?
    I had made a comment earlier about Larry Summers and the comment was deleted as mere chat, so I will explain. The comment was intended to be humerous, and to remind people of the sensitivty that many people have to this subject. Larry Summers is the former president of Harvard University who started a raging controversy and subsequently resigned for comments he made to the effect that men and women have innate cognitive differences. Some have argued that these differences are the reason that men and women are not equally represented in certain academic professions. The counter argument is that the disparity is due to sexism. I'm not sure Mr. Summers necessarily takes the position one way or another on the matter, but I think he was mainly suggesting that it is a legitimate matter for scientific inquiry.

    As to the questions, clearly sexism exists. A lot of men view women in general as inferior. The only examples that comes to mind right now are some unrepeatable jokes, but I don't think that men are sexist is a matter much in dispute.

    Can a woman do the same job, task, whatever as a man. There is no question in my mind that on an individual basis they can. If you want to generalize about men and women, then I think it is fair to say that there are differences. Men and women are different creatures and have, on average, different innate capabilities. The important thing is to not treat an individual man or women based on the aforementioned average differences. Unfortunately, people do this.

    I will add one more thing which was true for me and probably many other men as well. When I was in the work force I did not particularly like working with women. Not because I thought they couldn't do the job or anything like that. It was just that with women, there is always a certain sexual tension lurking in the back of the mind. It made it more difficult to concentrate on work. Clearly, this was my problem and not the womens', but it's there.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North East USA
    Native language
    British English
    Age
    51
    Posts
    6,246

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Thanks for an honest post, TRG. Definitely your problem!

    I certainly have no problem with legitimate scientific inquiry into cognitive differences between the sexes. Science is science.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Native language
    French
    Posts
    202

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by xarruc View Post
    Personally I think that the hardest hurdle facing women in the workplace is the kids issue.
    here too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xarruc View Post
    If you are child-rearing age, particulaly about 30, all employers are going to be suspicious of a women becoming a mother. The reasons are very simple:

    Maternity leave
    Disruption to the general workforce
    Risk of never returning to work (after all that expensive training)
    Disruption to the working day (phonecalls to nannies, doctors appointments, kids are sick, etc.)
    Change in life priorities.

    You can't blame a company for that.
    (why not? )

    Quote Originally Posted by xarruc View Post
    But it is tough on the women involved. and there are laws in place in many countries to try and even it up for the mothers and I think a balance is required.
    There are laws in place... that do not work! Interwiewers can still find a way to worm any information they want out of the woman job applicant. But, as far I as know, the Swedish model seems to work quite well in terms of maternity AND paternity leaves...

    Otherwise, there is no particular sex discriminations in this country. I saw male nurses and even a "man midwife." The only problem with the last case was a linguistic one: should he have changed the name of his profession into "midhusband"?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Barcelona
    Native language
    England
    Posts
    544

    Re: Sexism in the World

    I certainly have no problem with legitimate scientific inquiry into cognitive differences between the sexes. Science is science.
    There is a whole can of worms to be opened up here. Perhaps it should be in a new thread. There are differences between the sexes based on biological differences, and there are differences between races, and indeed any gene pools that are not well mixed, which result in scientifically measurable differences.

    It is well known in pharmacology as the following quote, which came in a split second's look in google, shows,

    The 50% inhibitory concentration (IC[50]) values for T-suppressor cell-trafficking inhibition were higher in whites than in blacks, regardless of sex (by 125% in men and 208% in women, p < 0.01). The IC[50] or SC[50] values for effects of prednisolone on cortisol secretion and T-helper lymphocyte or neutrophil trafficking were not statistically different between men and women, blacks and whites.
    (link here)

    More generally it is known that native Americans lack an enzyme used to digest alcohol and so generally become intoxicated on smaller quantities of alcohol.

    This research is of obvious importance as it can lead to better treatment regimes with lower risk of side effects.

    The trouble is that the underlying premise that we are DIFFERENT by birth goes counter to the philosophical premise that we are ALL BORN EQUAL. It's a very dangerous idea because of the potential extrapolation by racists and sexists who can use it to argue that their empirically observed gender/racial defects are there by genetics and hence by God, or Mother Nature etc.

    Of course unless the differences they mark out are scientifically studied they can just be considered the self-serving opinions of a biggot. But what if they are studied? What if we do find out something that can be truly described as a defect? Or that implies that women are unable to do something as well as men, or indeed the reverse? Would that lead to a revival of eugenics? What if the world had to decide whether to have equality for all, despite knowing that it was not the most efficient way? What if the different reaction between sexes or races was used in a form of warfare - a chemical gas that only killed one gene pool.

    I think that "legitimate scientific inquiry into cognitive differences between the sexes" or races is perhaps something that the modern world is too immature to deal with. "Science is science" - true, but Man's manipulation of the facts for his own agenda is older still.
    Last edited by xarruc; 23rd January 2007 at 4:37 PM.
    Please correct my mistakes

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Barcelona
    Native language
    England
    Posts
    544

    Re: Sexism in the World

    You can't blame a company for that.
    (why not? )
    Simply because of the priorities of the company are to its shareholders not the well being of its employees. You might argue that thats not fair. Maybe it's not but, its the way it is. You can't blame the company, just the capitalist system.
    Please correct my mistakes

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North East USA
    Native language
    British English
    Age
    51
    Posts
    6,246

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Yes, xarruc. I was tempted to write similar things, but didn't because it is off-topic. That's why I limited myself to "science is science".

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Barcelona
    Native language
    England
    Posts
    544

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Interwiewers can still find a way to worm any information they want out of the woman job applicant.
    I'll correct you;

    Interwiewers can still find a way to worm any information they want out of the job applicant.

    Discrimmination can always work two ways.



    As it happens, I have a friend who was asked about plans for kids recently in an interview. She told them where to go and still got the job.
    Please correct my mistakes

  13. #33
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    St Petersburg, Russia
    Native language
    Russian, Russia (St Petersburg)
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2,971

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by xarruc View Post
    If you are child-rearing age, particulaly about 30, all employers are going to be suspicious of a women becoming a mother. The reasons are very simple:

    Maternity leave
    Disruption to the general workforce
    Risk of never returning to work (after all that expensive training)
    Disruption to the working day (phonecalls to nannies, doctors appointments, kids are sick, etc.)
    Change in life priorities.

    You can't blame a company for that. But it is tough on the women involved. and there are laws in place in many countries to try and even it up for the mothers and I think a balance is required.
    The same thing in Russia.
    My Mum once said that I might have problems with finding myself a job because of my age - many girls in Russia get married in their early 20s.
    Indeed, when I came to my work, I find out that a number of girls are on their maternity leaves.
    Of course, there are various laws protecting women's rights, but... if the employers wants to dismiss a worker, they will always find a legal reason for that.
    Anna

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    New Jersey
    Native language
    English, USA
    Age
    30
    Posts
    713

    Re: Sexism in the World

    A prime example of what I am/was talking about: my best friend went for a job interview a few days ago. She's twenty years old and very attractive. She dressed appropriately and whatnot and has a fantastic resume, especially for someone her age. When the gentleman that was going to interview her came out to greet her, he was reading her resume with a very big smile on his face. When he saw who she was, however, it was apparent that the warm and fuzzy feeling that he felt dissapeared. She just called today and they told her that she did not get the job because they wanted someone with more "experience". (Meanwhile, because of her volunteer work and small temp. jobs she has been working in her profession for a little more than five years.)
    If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Maine, EEUU
    Native language
    EEUU-inglés
    Posts
    46,192

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Poetic Device View Post
    A prime example of what I am/was talking about: my best friend went for a job interview a few days ago. She's twenty years old and very attractive. She dressed appropriately and whatnot and has a fantastic resume, especially for someone her age. When the gentleman that was going to interview her came out to greet her, he was reading her resume with a very big smile on his face. When he saw who she was, however, it was apparent that the warm and fuzzy feeling that he felt dissapeared. She just called today and they told her that she did not get the job because they wanted someone with more "experience". (Meanwhile, because of her volunteer work and small temp. jobs she has been working in her profession for a little more than five years.)
    Your friend may have been refused the job for any number of reasons:

    —another, or other, better suited applicants were interviewed
    —a more experienced applicant was hired
    —she did or said something in the interview that created doubt or discomfort on the part of the potential employer.

    Perhaps she was the best qualified, did nothing wrong, and was not hired for the reasons you imply.

    That's all speculation.


    Anecdotal assumptions of sexism do not demonstrate, much less 'prove', sexism.

    A smart employer will suit her or his own self-interest by hiring the best qualified applicant.
    A not-so-smart or stupid or bigoted employer may hire somebody other that the best qualified applicant. That your friend has a fine resume and other characteristics of age and appearance, and did not receive a job offer, is not sufficient evidence to accuse an employer of sexism.
    That is sloppy reasoning.
    That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    La Jerusalén de los Suramericanos.
    Native language
    Venezuela --> Spanish -or something alik
    Posts
    3,896

    Re: Sexism in the World

    1. Does this happen in your culture?
    Are you kidding me?! Yes, it happens. Latin America does not have this reputation of being the land of chauvinism just out of nothing! Venezuela is a crazy mingle, and an eternal contradiction (see why I'm like this, guys? ), so you have both discrimination, and sexist/anti-sexist (is there any difference?) 'responses' to such discrimination.

    -How often?
    Every day.

    -Can you give examples?
    Sure. Here, there are some un-written rules on the matter. (Disclaimer: What you are about to read by no means expresses the forera's thoughts on the matter, it only represents the way society states it in Venezuela, and shall remain solely under the country's liability.)

    (a) No man can be a hairdresser, a model, a receptionist, a secretary, a professional dancer, a nurse, a kindergarden teacher, or a fashion designer (among some others). Unless he's gay, of course. And there are hundreds of gay guys out there totally willing to keep up the stereotypes... Oh, and every 'metrosexual' around, willing to have his nails done and get the highlights, is under severe risk of being called "danceeeeerrr!!" in the middle of the street. A major offense, no doubt.

    (b) No woman can be a firefighter, a police officer, a plumber, a car repairperson, join the national guard, the army, the garbage collection service, or any other job that requires more physical effort than it would take to change a diaper, could potentially ruin her manicure, or could eventually impede her to prepare dinner on time for her hubby.

    2. Do you personally believe in the idea that there a some things a man can do that a woman cannot and visa versa?
    Not sure how to answer this without making somebody upset. I just think everything is relative.

    For example, if a woman really wants to be, say, a firefighter, she likes the profession, considers all the pros and cons, prepares herself physically as well as professionally and psychologically for it, then why the heck not? But if she is not prepared for it, then why the heck doing it? Again, wouldn't this apply to men as well?

    I know plenty of women who are ten times better prepared than many men to be a police officer, a trainperson, a taxi driver, or any other job that is considered to be "for men only". I just can't understand why in the world not giving those women the chance, and giving it to an underprepared guy, just because he's a man! But also, it would be a mistake giving an underprepared woman the job just because she is a woman and "thou shalt not be sexist".

    In other words, I think the job and the fair salary should go to the one who can do the job, do it right, and not be waving a sexist/anti-sexist flag all around in order to get it/keep it.

    Enough about that... Now I suggest you guys to take a look at this thread: Mujer moderna/modern woman and relax a little. It's not like: "geez, that's precisely what we're talking about!!", but it's somewhat related. Have fun!
    Last edited by Venezuelan_sweetie; 24th January 2007 at 4:36 PM. Reason: A whole day later, I notice how sleepy I was when I typed this post...
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Native language
    French
    Posts
    202

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Venezuelan_sweetie View Post
    In other words, I think the job and the fair salary should go to the one who can do the job, do it right, and not be waving a sexist/anti-sexist flag all around in order to get it/keep it.
    Well, I think "sexism" takes different forms according to the law people have to cope with and the cultural values that go with it. One of my friend COULD have the job she wanted, just because she denied having 3 children at home... afterwards, her daily life was a true hell. Afterwards, her husband had to manadge free time for the children. But, HE was NOT sanctioned for being often absent of his work... and this is not something taken out of fancy.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    La Jerusalén de los Suramericanos.
    Native language
    Venezuela --> Spanish -or something alik
    Posts
    3,896

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by agliagli View Post
    Well, I think "sexism" takes different forms according to the law people have to cope with and the cultural values that go with it.
    You're freakin' right. But honestly, that's not what I had in mind. What I meant was simple: I think an anti-sexist woman can almost unadvertidly slip into (feminist) sexism within the blink of an eye...

    Not that every anti-sexist woman does so, nor that fighting against what you consider unfair is wrong. Just a little comment, based upon what I've seen around.

    PS: Please, this is not the main "debate" here. It was just a side-remark in response to the main topic, which I believe has been (very) clearly stated by Poetic Device already.
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    New Jersey
    Native language
    English, USA
    Age
    30
    Posts
    713

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by maxiogee View Post
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by cuchuflete View Post
    Your friend may have been refused the job for any number of reasons:

    —another, or other, better suited applicants were interviewed
    —a more experienced applicant was hired
    —she did or said something in the interview that created doubt or discomfort on the part of the potential employer.

    Perhaps she was the best qualified, did nothing wrong, and was not hired for the reasons you imply.

    That's all speculation.


    Anecdotal assumptions of sexism do not demonstrate, much less 'prove', sexism.

    A smart employer will suit her or his own self-interest by hiring the best qualified applicant.
    A not-so-smart or stupid or bigoted employer may hire somebody other that the best qualified applicant. That your friend has a fine resume and other characteristics of age and appearance, and did not receive a job offer, is not sufficient evidence to accuse an employer of sexism.
    That is sloppy reasoning.
    YOu are right, and I apologize, but why then would the smile turn into a scowl the minute he looked at her?
    If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Native language
    imithe
    Posts
    8,792

    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Poetic Device View Post
    he was reading her resume with a very big smile on his face.
    … and none but he can say what put it there. Perhaps he… had been to the same school, had spotted a typo, had seen the same phrase in five other resumés that day, … who knows?

Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •