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Thread: Sexism in the World

  1. #101
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Poetic Device View Post
    When the tests were harder and more strict, if you passed them then you had a right to be there. However, They lowered the standards so much now that a person who is asthmatic, bipolar, and schitzophrenic can be in there.
    I am a little confused here.
    Are you saying that the American Military accepts recruits in the prior knowledge that these people are either bipolar or schizophrenic?
    The asthmatic link is confusing. Many elite athletes compete at the highest level while managing their asthma. I know of a huge number of professional Rugby and Rugby League players who are capable of playing 80 minutes of one of the most bone jarring, physically demanding sports in existence yet these blokes have asthma.
    I served in the Australian Army with soldiers who had to whip out a 'puffer' every now and then and no one thought twice about it.

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  2. #102
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42 View Post
    "The point is that there are always so many things going on with women - be it mental or physical - that is not right for either sex for them to be in the field".

    "...a woman...is built to have unconditional compassion"
    There's a difference, Emma, between being "in the military" and "in the field".

  3. #103
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Mod note :
    There's almost twenty posts about the army in this thread. I'd like to see a link of this "aside" to the thread's topic, or else we'll have to make a wide cleaning operation here.
    In other terms : would you please not focus in the army standards per se, and try to link them to the thread's topic ?

    Thank you everyone.
    Last edited by cherine; 26th January 2007 at 9:58 PM.

  4. #104
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by maxiogee View Post
    There's a difference, Emma, between being "in the military" and "in the field".
    Follow that course, Cpl. OhGee! If women can be in the military, but not in the field, they are
    back to sexist stereotyped jobs, while real men do the 'real men's work' of killing. Shall we bring back the Women's Army Corps and the like? Women can clean the barracks, iron the uniforms, cook the meals, and the fully capable (!) soldiers can go out into the field to talk about the women and take potshots at whatever moves in 'no man's land'.
    That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.

  5. #105
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by la reine victoria View Post
    These women knew virtually nothing of the world beyond their village. There was no electricity when I was there, so no televisions. No newspapers; just a few transistor radios tuned to the Arab stations across the Gulf.

    Until they became used to my presence, they would stroke my blonde hair and touch my skin (to see if I were real), so unused were they to outsiders.

    There had been a community in this place for centuries and I doubt if what I saw of their way of life had changed very much. Simple, happy, fishing folk. I doubt that the words "second-class citizen" existed in their vocabulary.

    LRV
    There is a quote attributed to Goethe:

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

    In this way, sexist people can argue that women are and have always been equal to men in all societies and cultures of history, including that of the Taliban.

    You can teach women that their role is to stay at home, get married, take care of the kids, and obey the husband, while it's the man's role to get educated, protect his wife, and make money for the family. And you can argue that women and men are equal in this situation because they have distinct complementary roles: that society couldn't function without women making babies and raising them, neither could it function without the men being the brains and leadership.

    If women are led to believe that these roles are set in stone, then they won't believe that these are limits to their freedom. "If I am killed for being raped, then maybe it's alright because it's the woman's virginity that determines the honor of the family". But yet to many men and women in their society, there is no sexism.

    The danger to such strong patriarchal societies is the education of women: what if women find out that they too can be leaders and make money? And that it's not a crime against their female sex to do so? What if they are exposed through literature and the Western media to more modern societies like our own, where women do have these freedoms that don't exist in their home countries, and actually take advantage of them (at least to a degree)?

    The key to maintaining the status quo is to convince the oppressed that they are by nature in the subservient position. In this way you get peace: the oppressed don't care that they may be beaten or killed because they believe this is the way things are and therefore try to think about other everyday issues instead, and the oppressors are happy because there is no rebellion to challenge their power. The women in Iran you mentioned are in the ignorant oppressed category: why be unhappy if there is no perceived injustice?

    You see, any society and person can claim that they are not sexist. But equality should not be measured only by the number of roles each gender has, but by how much freedom there is to breach these roles. Thank goodness that the status of women here is hundreds of years ahead of that in Iran.
    Last edited by vince; 28th January 2007 at 11:57 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    I could not agree more. The idea of comparatively wealthy, western women cooing over the simplicity and loveliness of the lives of women living in such poverty and oppression makes me want to throw up.

  7. #107
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    And I find it simply laughable!!! For goodness` sake, how ignorant should be those people who believe in the supremacy of their values and lifestyles and the unhappiness of those who differ!!
    No less than President Bush in his strife to share "democratic values" of his with the rest of the world!!

    I too have lived in Iran and elsewhere, enough to understand how much concepts like rights and oppression depend on your angle of view with which you were brought up.
    It is a matter of perception of every single individual, whether they feel that they are oppressed and restricted in their rights, nothing more. The concept of oppression can only exist alongside the concept of rights and duties.
    It is like trying to compare who is more oppressed: a housewife having to care for a bunch of children and not having time to leave her house or a business woman who is working day and night trying to save her company and never getting any sleep - Both if they are unhappy with their present situation and cannot change it and neither of they are happy with their choice. But again it is a matter of perception, not standards set from the outside.

    And do you seriously believe that Irani women are more miserable than American or European women?!! They may well be far happier on average(that depends but...). Now what an honour: to live in the way the Western society is offering!! They would rather opt for performing their much more "natural" duties like cooking, getting married, caring for your husband. And as for some unpleasant practices, I am sure, one can find so much of it within our culture if one looks at it from the outside and sees the things we do not notice because we are no less accustomed to them than Afghan women to having to wear a burqa or stay indoors. Irani women are miserable when abused just in the same way as Western women, no more no less, and happy when loved just in the same way.
    And this is the only possible way to evaluate the situation of women probably: by the detriment cause to their health by the lifestyle of the community or by their self-evaluation. Do you know where the most optimistic peole live? According to doctors, the first positions are held not by the First-World countries.

    I have to stress: I am not speaking in defence of the Irani way of life or Afghanistani over the Western way of life or vice-versa and I am not being pro-Western or ani-Western!! I am only saying that we should stop being so narrow-minded and judge the whole world in its diversity with our own token as the only measure. Such a thing as oppression exists only in the case when people feel that their natural rights and opportunities are restricted and that they are treated unfairly. Otherwise, the whole matter makes no sense. I can quite imagine that somebody from Mars is looking down on us and thinking: oh poor things! They are so oppressed, they are living with these conditions and know no other and that is why they are feeling that they are free, content and at their right place...
    And the main goal is that people, men,women, children, may be happy and content in whichever way they choose and not in making them conform to the standards of happiness and equality held by a particular culture. This "pity" for the "oppressed" women always sounds very much like the eternal religious: oh these poor things! They do not know the truth, they are not as happy as us because they are not living like us, let us go and save them (teach them)....(that may refer to any religious group)
    It takes great courage to speak out loud about things which on the quiet are known to everybody.

  8. #108
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    In my personal experience. I´m 19 years old, once I was on vacation so I wanted to look for a job. The person to attended me was a woman, she said me that if I wished to work there I need a negative test of pregnate (I don´t know if it´s the correct word for write that, but I hope you understand me). Well, it´s incorrect, it´s sexism and I was very angry of that, however it´s real and in this 2007 this kind of things are horrible. Here in México all the women, or almost all, need to work, and there are some women-driver and there are women working building houses and roads, or women to repairs cars. It´s amaizing. And they do that because they don´t have a chance to choice a better job. It´s only a job. The thing is that the women in the future will be more productive than the men.
    Last edited by zebedee; 29th January 2007 at 10:56 AM. Reason: punctuation and capital letters please
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  9. #109
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by afabafa View Post
    [...] the thing is that the women in the future will be more productive than the men.
    I was in the act of writing my opinion about how outraged I was at such a preposterous and blatant show of sexism, about asking a woman for a negative proof of pregnancy, when I read the last statement and thought:

    [schreeching noise of tires braking...]

    Wait a tick: come again?

    Estaba justo en el acto de escribir mi opinión sobre qué escandalizado me encontré frente a un acto de sexismo tan ridículo y descarado, eso de pedir a una mujer que demuestre una prueba de embarazo negativa, cuando leí la última oración y pensé:

    [sonido de un enfrenón de llantas...]

    Aguanta un cacho: ¿Cómo estuvo eso?
    Last edited by danielfranco; 29th January 2007 at 6:01 AM. Reason: only two typos... lucky today
    ¿88 relatos descarriados? Un leve desliz…

  10. #110
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Daniel--
    ¿Estás asombrado por lo de "en el futuro"? O sea, a mi parecer ya existe esta condición. Muchas mujeres hoy en día son más productivas.
    That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.

  11. #111
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Es una realidad que si no estás preparada desafortunadamente no tienes opción para escoger el trabajo que quieres realizar, ni modo. Así está el mundo. Por eso la mejor manera es prepararte, estudiar y superarte para no tener que conducir un taxi o un autobús. En efecto he de seguir estudiando y superándome.
    Last edited by zebedee; 29th January 2007 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Por favor, ojo con la puntuación y los acentos.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    cuchufleta:
    En efecto, tienes toda la razón. La imagen de la mujer está sobresaliendo. Simplemente en lo que yo estudio hay 30 mujeres por cada 10 hombres. ¿Por qué los hombres no se avientan a estudiar una carrera un poco pesada? Afortunadamente cada día las posibilidades de que la mujer estudie siguen en aumento. Sin embargo aún hay muchos atrasos y somos constantemente relegadas, y hechas a un lado. Todavia no tenemos la oportunidad de alcanzar puestos tan altos como los hombres pero lo lograremos.
    Last edited by zebedee; 29th January 2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Por favor, ojo con la puntuación y los acentos.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by cuchuflete View Post
    Daniel--
    ¿Estás asombrado por lo de "en el futuro"? O sea, a mi parecer ya existe esta condición. Muchas mujeres hoy en día son más productivas.
    No, Mr C. No surprises there (been married for many years now, so I KNOW it's a fact). I was just very interested to find out where the statement came from, or what would be it's follow-up, is all. And also, thinking of all the beloved forer@s out there who thrive on dissecting every post and arguing about the intended and actual meaning of every single word ever written, I wondered if that sentence would open the discussion to the direction of speculation as to, when women actually are not discriminated against in the workplace because of their gender, once it's obvious to everybody else that women can be more productive than men, if reverse-sexism might not arise like a behemoth from the depths.

    Is all, I mean to say.
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  14. #114
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by afabafa View Post
    cuchufleta:
    En efecto, tienes toda la razón. La imagen de la mujer está sobresaliendo. Simplemente en lo que yo estudio hay 30 mujeres por cada 10 hombres.
    What is this due to? Is the situation in Mexico similar to that in Russia: excessive male mortality leads to a "deficit" of males?

    Also, may I ask los estimados foreros not to write in other langaues here since not all participants may be able to read Spanish.
    It takes great courage to speak out loud about things which on the quiet are known to everybody.

  15. #115
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Setwale_Charm View Post
    And I find it simply laughable!!! For goodness' sake, how ignorant should be those people who believe in the supremacy of their values and lifestyles and the unhappiness of those who differ!!
    No less than President Bush in his strife to share "democratic values" of his with the rest of the world!! (...) I too have lived in Iran and elsewhere, enough to understand how much concepts like rights and oppression depend on your angle of view with which you were brought up.
    It is a matter of perception of every single individual, whether they feel that they are oppressed and restricted in their rights, nothing more. (...)But again it is a matter of perception, not standards set from the outside. (...)And do you seriously believe that Irani women are more miserable than American or European women?!! (...) Irani women are miserable when abused just in the same way as Western women, no more no less, and happy when loved just in the same way.(...)Do you know where the most optimistic peole live? According to doctors, the first positions are held not by the First-World countries.
    (...) we should stop being so narrow-minded and judge the whole world in its diversity with our own token as the only measure. Such a thing as oppression exists only in the case when people feel that their natural rights and opportunities are restricted and that they are treated unfairly. Otherwise, the whole matter makes no sense.(...) And the main goal is that people, men,women, children, may be happy and content in whichever way they choose and not in making them conform to the standards of happiness and equality held by a particular culture. (...)
    (Sorry, too long if I quote it all)
    Darling, it was so bold of you to express all this, especially since (for some reason still unknown, against common sense and rational thinking) your opinion is not shared by many.

    You've inspired me, SC! I was about to click on the "submit reply" after three paragraphs of praise and support, properly backed-up with facts and conceptions on the matter, until I noticed it was all in Spanish...

    I'll post back when I translate it, or when I switch my brain to "English mode" and come up with arguments in that language...
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

  16. #116
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    I agree very much with what Vince wrote above, but I think La Reine Victoria also had a point when she called my views "cynical" a few pages back. I accept that some women may be happy in more traditional societies -- genuinely happy, not just resignedly so, as in Vince's examples.

    However, I am convinced that such happiness is not for everyone. There will always be some women who will aspire to have something more for themselves, to be more independent. I even believe that these cases will be the majority, provided that an alternative way of existence is available.

    The advantage of modern democratic societies (which comes with many shortcomings, to be sure) is that they offer more choices, and greater freedom to make those choices. In my view, this is essentially a human universal, not a foreign cultural imposition.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  17. #117
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Yes,outsider, it is essentially a "human universal". I am certainly not advocating that all women in all societies should be able to adopt my lifestyle or the all the cultural values of my society, and I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated such.

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    Ok, in English... ;-)

    SC, after reading your post, I can't but congratulate you for daring to honestly express yourself that way. (The following statements might seem off-topic, but they're not. Please go over them twice...) Actually, I believe most Western standards are overrated, and a considerable amount of people tend to think that if others don't live according to them, those must be (a) opressed, (b) unhappy, (c) living an inferior kind of life, or (d) all of the above; therefore those people are in need of a superpower in order to "rescue" them from their offensively lower-quality lives. That is, not just regarding to what we could consider sexism, but it also extends to other aspects of life, such as politics, religion, family values, customs, sexuality, use of vocabulary, order of priorities, and many other things that are so often times determined or at least influenced by cultural factors.

    Some people/nations seem to tattle-tell other cultures as sexist and oppressive without really being into it, leave alone understanding it and being capable of telling what the people really need -in order to tell what they are lacking of. Who gave them that right, anyway? I can assure you, ladies and gentlemen, that a woman can be/feel happy and satisfied with her life and not to feel opressed/discriminated in a lifestyle as the one described by LRV, without lying to herself. No lifestyle or culture is per se a promise of (un)happiness.

    I've never been in Iran, nor I know anybody from there, but I am familiar with life in the African continent, as well as in the most hidden, remote rural areas in my own native land. Life 'over there' is quite different from the one that 'city girls' are used to, and both opression and satisfaction come from very different sources than those we know.

    I believe it is very disrespectful from us to state that a woman who has not had the chance of getting a PhD in whatever career is an opressed woman. What can we say about those who have not had the chance of seeing her own child grow up, by being a slave of her career (since she did have the choice of getting that PhD)? They could perfectly well be (or not) opressed, by her own choice or not. Who would be in right of questioning how valid their principles are? Who would be entitled to credit or discredit a whole lifestyle? How much ignorance is needed, in order to pretend that women from other places are unhappy, just because they don't have some things that we consider basic, elementary, indispensable within our context? Only goodness would know how those women see us, from our stands of slavery to the hair-blower, manicurists and gyms...

    A woman (actually, an individual) can be/feel opressed as well as happy in any culture. Each culture provides its members with the means to happiness and suffering as well. To me, it is just not logical thinking to state that culture XXX is in general lines happier than culture YYY since it has the Z element for its women. How come we can't see that culture YYY has element P, for example, which women from that culture find indispensable for happiness, which is unexistant in culture XXX (which of course doesn't make women in there unhappy)? It just doesn't make sense...

    How arrogant of us, to come around pretending to impose on others our own (context-limited) vision of things, just like that... True, there are specific places in the world in which some circumstances limit happiness (for both genders), such as civil war, extreme poverty, excessive pollution, and so on. But then, it is not the culture itself, its values, its constitution, as it has been suggested. The problem then is formed by other factors.

    Hope I'm making sense in here...
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

  19. #119
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    This thread is about sexism, not happiness or imposing one's own culture on another. Sexism is discrimination against either sex on the basis of sex. No more, no less. I don't happen to think sexism is a good thing - others may disagree.

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42 View Post
    This thread is about sexism, not happiness or imposing one's own culture on another. Sexism is discrimination against either sex on the basis of sex. No more, no less. I don't happen to think sexism is a good thing - others may disagree.
    I'd like to meet those "others", darling. Perhaps we could have a talk...

    My previous post was in defense of LRV and support to Set_Charm, not advocating for sexism! What I meant is that we tend to think that women who don't have what we have (things we consider good, necessary, and a symbol of freedom, satisfaction and happiness) actually want those things, and since they don't have those things, we call them opressed. That is of course, no excuse to sexism in cultures other than our own, but we must realize that the means for happiness are not seen the same way all over the world.

    We tend to forget that, and as a result, we sometimes tag some cultures as sexist when they are not. Or, we tag some women as unhappy, when their lives are filled with satisfaction. That was my point. Hope I'm being clear enough...
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

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