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Thread: Sexism in the World

  1. #161
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Setwale_Charm View Post
    Thank you, .,,, but this Freddy is not among acquaintances of mine. Pity! A nice guy?

    I only mean that not everybody will be able to profit from what certain foreros write should they choose to do it in a language other than English.
    Setwale,
    May I give you some context for Blind Freddy and the coal cellar.
    Blind Freddy is a person who is as thick as a post, not the brightest spanner in the tool kit, not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You get the drift, this bloke was a world class under-achiever. The chap would have had a hard time finding his own bum if you gave him a route map and a compass.
    Blind Freddy is said to be based on an English toff, a baronet named Sir William Pottinger who was sent from London to Australia's colonial goldfields to catch a bushranger, Ben Hall. It is not known if Sir Bill was really stupid or if it was just a case of a city bloke sent to catch a bushranger in unmapped bush that Ben Hall was born in. In any event it is said that Ben Hall could be on one side of a tree and Blind Freddy on the other and Ben Hall could smoke a pipe with no fear of capture.
    The coal cellar is a reference to the darkest place possible. A coal cellar at midnight with no moon and a blackout is the most utterly dark place that I could imagine.
    So the stage is set. We have the dim witted Blind Freddy blundering about in the stygian darkness of the coal cellar yet even he can see the absolute clarity of the statement made by Cuchuflete that you had agreed with and to which I was supplying a concomitant compliment.

    Is that clearer?

    .,,

  2. #162
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Our right as a human being, living on this earth, is freedom. Freedom to choose who we want to be, what we want to be, and where we want to be. Some of us are lucky. We're born into a culture that allows us those freedoms.
    I totally agree with you. But you must recognize that that is based on personal conjecture and at most moral values. X is right because it is right can be inspirational, but it's still not a persuasive argument. If you want to argue cultural sensibilities effectively you must do it from within that culture (whatever that means) not from outside.

  3. #163
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Question:

    Do you believe that every human being born on this earth has one inalienable right:

    To be able to choose who they want to be, what they want to be, and in which way they want to be?

    If your answer is yes, then you and I agree.

    If your answer is no, then you are a supporter of one of the main means by which control and power and the withholding of those rights is achieved: Sexism.

    There are other ways, I suppose, but that's this thread's topic.

    And one final note:
    To be able to live as you wish and be who you wish, and fulfill whatever dreams you wish can't be obtained at the expense of someone else. If you do that, then you're looping right back around to trying to control and manipulate others to gain your own goals.

    Living in freedom can only work if you allow others to live in freedom, as well.

    Once again, Sexism takes away that option, too.


    AngelEyes
    Last edited by AngelEyes; 30th January 2007 at 6:56 PM.

  4. #164
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomsen View Post
    I totally agree with you. But you must recognize that that is based on personal conjecture and at most moral values. X is right because it is right can be inspirational, but it's still not a persuasive argument. If you want to argue cultural sensibilities effectively you must do it from within that culture (whatever that means) not from outside.
    Now, that is a persuasive argument! Although, according to it, maybe I should think differently, so that I can see whether it is persuasive to me or not...

    Thomsen, that's precisely my point, not only about sexism, but also about whatever opinion we pretend to give on other cultures... Thanks for setting it so clear.
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Question:

    Do you believe that every human being born on this earth has one inalienable right:

    To be able to choose who they want to be, what they want to be, and in which way they want to be?
    No, I do not believe that every human being born on this earth has any rights whatsoever. I don't believe in the concept of natural rights. Rights are what are conferred by whatever group one happens to be living in.
    Last edited by TrentinaNE; 30th January 2007 at 7:22 PM. Reason: Better to get the quotation tags right to begin with! ;-)

  6. #166
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Question:

    Do you believe that every human being born on this earth has one inalienable right:

    To be able to choose who they want to be, what they want to be, and in which way they want to be?

    If your answer is yes, then you and I agree.

    If your answer is no, then you are a supporter of one of the main means by which control and power and the withholding of those rights is achieved: Sexism.

    There are other ways, I suppose, but that's this thread's topic.

    And one final note:
    To be able to live as you wish and be who you wish, and fulfill whatever dreams you wish can't be obtained at the expense of someone else. If you do that, then you're looping right back around to trying to control and manipulate others to gain your own goals.

    Living in freedom can only work if you allow others to live in freedom, as well.

    Once again, Sexism takes away that option, too.


    AngelEyes
    How do you find it fair to say that?
    If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

  7. #167
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Question:

    Do you believe that every human being born on this earth has one inalienable right:

    To be able to choose who they want to be, what they want to be, and in which way they want to be?
    No, I do not believe that every human being born on this earth has any rights whatsoever. I don't believe in the concept of natural rights. Rights are what are conferred by whatever group one happens to be living in.
    So if you're born into slavery, you deserve and must continue to live your whole life in slavery.

    If you're born into a society who treats women as second-class citizens, then...hey, tough luck...you drew the short straw in this game. Live with it.

    If I understand you correctly, and maybe I'm not, but if I am...then not everyone who is born on this earth is as good and worthwhile and important as the next person.

    You can't possibly be saying this, can you?

    What, to you, does the term Natural Rights mean?

    To me, that means that I am just as important as you. You are just as important as me, and no matter what culture either of us is born into, it can't prohibit this right from belonging to both of us.

    You and I are both human beings, inhabiting this same earth.

    No group or culture has the right to take that away from either one of us. Through the use of sexism or something else.


    AngelEyes
    Last edited by TrentinaNE; 30th January 2007 at 7:23 PM. Reason: Fixed quotation tags.

  8. #168
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Poetic Device View Post
    How do you find it fair to say that?

    Well, my main point is that you and I are equal, both born on the same planet, just in different parts of this world.

    I have the right to live my life exactly the way I want, as long as it doesn't hurt you.

    YOU, too, have that same right: to follow your dreams and become whoever you want to be.

    We should all be against whatever denies all our fellow human beings these exact same rights.

    It belongs to all of us because all of us have value and are important, just by the very fact that we've been born.

    My attitude is not to judge who is and who isn't good enough, or special enough to have access to these freedoms.

    That's the whole point of my point: we should all be free to choose, and no culture should have the power to deny us.

    Sexism in some cultures is precisely one way of accomplishing that denial.

    How can any of you be against personal freedom for all?

    AngelEyes

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Question:

    Do you believe that every human being born on this earth has one inalienable right:

    To be able to choose who they want to be, what they want to be, and in which way they want to be?
    Nope. I do not.
    It would be lovely were this the case but it is obviously and transparently demonstrably not the case.
    A berber tribesman can wish upon a star for as long as he likes but he will never be an astronaut.
    I can train for my whole life but I will never be World Heavyweight Boxing Champion.
    What is the point of such a question?

    .,,

  10. #170
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by .,, View Post
    Nope. I do not.
    It would be lovely were this the case but it is obviously and transparently demonstrably not the case.
    A berber tribesman can wish upon a star for as long as he likes but he will never be an astronaut.
    I can train for my whole life but I will never be World Heavyweight Boxing Champion.
    What is the point of such a question?

    .,,
    1. A berber tribesman can wish upon a star for as long as he likes but he will never be an astronaut.

    But he should have the opportunity to choose to leave his tribe and try, if he wants to. No one in the tribe should have the power to tell him he has to stay, or can never leave.




    2. I can train for my whole life but I will never be World Heavyweight Boxing Champion.

    Maybe you won't become a champion, but I have no right - and neither does anyone else here on this board - to tell you that you can't try.


    That's my point.


    AngelEyes

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    That's the whole point of my point: we should all be free to choose, and no culture should have the power to deny us.
    Look, darling, your post is wonderful. It reminds me of earlier days, when my idealism would unadvertidly make me tread upon other people's cultural background.

    The deal is that, if you're right, then what should you do? Intervene? That's precisely my worst and biggest fear, darling. <Meaning that I don't want to start thinking that way, nor I would like any other culture even try to mess up with mine or any other's...> And that's also the stupid excuse that some politicians wield against some superpowers...
    Last edited by Venezuelan_sweetie; 30th January 2007 at 7:40 PM. Reason: Clear out something
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Where do rights, natural rights, unnatural rights, aberrant rights, or any other kind of rights come from?
    Societies or cultures come to agreements about what they believe to be fundamentally 'correct', and more often, efficient for the general welfare of that particular society or culture. Rights do not fall from heaven or from the lips of Rush Limbo or Norman Thomas or Dick Cheney or Karl Marx. They did not emerge from the primordial ooze. They are human creations, and as dozens upon dozens of fascinating threads in this forum demonstrate, the definition of a right is a moving target.

    Citizens of the US do not (yet) have a right to state sponsored medical care in all circumstances. Citizens of many European nations and Canada do have broad rights in that regard. AngelEyes just introduced, for the first time, the notion of what people "deserve". That has nothing to do with the definition of sexism or sex-based discrimination. It is a non-objective value judgement. So is the notion of how 'important' or 'unimportant' a person may be.

    I disagree with sexism. I don't like sexism. I would prefer that all societies and cultures, starting with my own, dispense with it. I have no "right" to impose my viewpoints on other societies and cultures. I may have a 'right' to disagree with them, to find fault with them, to criticize them, from my viewpoint, but I have no grid-given 'right' to enforce my views on other societies.

    Forget 'rights' for a moment, and consider what I said in an earlier post, trying to link the absence of sexism and freedom. I pointed out that members of sexist societies, once exposed to an alternative, tended to prefer the non-sexist alternative. That is a lot different from stating that anyone is born with a right to this or that. People often coincide in their wishes, their desires, maybe their instinctive attractions to something. That is not the same thing as declaring it to be a right bestowed from the clouds, or granted by more enlightened humans.

    Take, for example, a tribe in which there is discrimination in economic roles. Men clean houses and rear children and cook and sew, while women hunt dangerous game and play tennis at the local club and boast about how cute and lovely their hairy-faced menfolk are. This is the long-standing social order, the only one known to all the men and women. They do not question it, as they have had no exposure to an alternative way of living.
    One fine day, an UN Agency for the Promotion of Burrocracy and Excess Administration expedition arrives. The men don't know a damned thing about sewing, for the most part, except for one or two who like to sew and are good at it. The UN APBEA team has women who are brave hunters/huntresses, and also some who prefer to cook. All the UN team members appear happy and well-adjusted with their individual and collective choices.

    At first the tribe members are absolutely astonished at the freedom of choice shown by the UN team members.
    They cannot imagine a society in which people choose, freely, to adopt both the conventional, 'correct' roles, and the opposite, 'unnatural' ones. After a while, the UN team, having left some pernicious microbes with the tribe, goes home. Some members of the tribe begin to show signs that they, too, would like the freedom of choice displayed by the UN team members. This move to adopt greater freedom seems, to me at least, to be a human instinct that is widespread. Other tribe members prefer to be conservative, keep to their old ways. They fear that change will destroy their culture. They are at ease with what is known, in this case sex discrimination. That too is an exercise in freedom of choice. Before the UN visit, it was unthinking acceptance of the status quo, but after having seen an alternative, it is a conscious choice, an exercise of the freedom to think and make a personal decision.

    Do these tribespeople have any inherent right to rock the boat and change the way things are and have always been? If their society permits such a choice, they have that right. If their society does not, they don't, but many may campaign for it until they win it. That's human instinct, risk-taking, or whatever else you may call it.
    It is not a right until the local culture comes to agree that it is a right.

    Some women were 'allowed' to go to school in Afghanistan before the Taliban took control. During Taliban control, they could not. Discrimination. After the Taliban were deposed, many women welcomed the opportunity to get some education, without sexist constraints. That's good, from my viewpoint. What is far less good is if another culture sends an army to enforce the "right" to an education. That sounds too much like colonial occupation of Latin America, in which people were given the 'rights' to practice a foreign religious faith, and to be slaves. The more 'enlightened' and modern society imposed and enforced its sense of rights on other
    cultures. Of course the Europeans had God on their side, as they saw it at the time.
    That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    I will try to put this simply: In the USA, you have a Bill of Rights. You have these rights because they have been conferred upon you by those who rule you/rule in your name. In some states of the USA gay men are not allowed to marry eachother because they do not have the right. In other states, they do have the right.

    Rights are artificial concepts conferred upon people. Human beings, other animals, plants, and minerals have no natural rights. Nature is nature. Artificial constructs are artificial constructs.

    Edit: Sorry, I posted at the same time as Cuchuflete.

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Venezuelan_sweetie View Post
    Look, darling, your post is wonderful. It reminds me of earlier days, when my idealism would unadvertidly make me tread upon other people's cultural background.

    The deal is that, if you're right, then what should you do? Intervene? That's precisely my worst and biggest fear, darling. And that's also the stupid excuse that some politicians wield against some superpowers...

    Thanks, sweetheart...I love it when someone thinks I'm wonderful.

    If I were stuck in a culture that treated me as if I were invisible at best, and the chattel of some man, at worst...I'd be praying my ass off someone would come and save me.

    It's clear that you fear I'll stick my fat, American gun into somebody's culture, all in the guise of "saving them from themselves". Maybe that's what scares you the most. Don't worry, I'm not that wonderful.

    So, maybe we can stick to the philosophical point of this discussion, concerning the use of sexism to control a person.

    I believe nobody should have control over anybody's personal freedom.

    If that makes me an idealistic dreamer, then thanks!

    I'll take that as a compliment and go and enjoy my day.


    AngelEyes

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    This discussion on rights has nothing to do with idealism. Is anyone able to point to one instance of a "right" which has not been won, conferred, or brought into existence by common consent? If someone is able, I will revise my thinking on "natural rights".

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by cuchuflete View Post
    AngelEyes just introduced, for the first time, the notion of what people "deserve". That has nothing to do with the definition of sexism or sex-based discrimination.
    I defined sexism in my first post:

    First of all, I define sexism as an attitude or belief system that includes the idea that one sex is superior over the other and, therefore, should have the privilege and right to make decisions for all in political, social, and personal areas.

    Based on that definition, I believe every human being deserves equal opportunity to pursue their dreams in life. If someone, using sexism as the basis to deny anyone that right, prevents them from their own personal freedom, I feel that is wrong.

    It's a philosophical point that I'm trying to make here.

    Nothing more.


    AngelEyes

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Ouch!

    See, AngelEyes, I never meant to make this personal. My view on "rights" is very similar to what Emma and Cuchu have posted (so clearly!). However, let me adress to those accusations (not the word, I know... Dang! I hate not to be a native speaker... )
    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Thanks, sweetheart...I love it when someone thinks I'm wonderful. You're honest, dear, even against 'general consensus' (does such a thing exist in here?). That's something that not a lot of people dare to be. That's what makes your post wonderful.

    If I were stuck in a culture that treated me as if I were invisible at best, and the chattel of some man, at worst...I'd be praying my ass off someone would come and save me. You would. You! Maybe I would, too. Someone from your (our) context would see things in a way. We don't know how women in other context see their own circumstances. Besides, even if they actually are suffering, careful with playing Superman... We're not bulletproof, are we?

    It's clear that you fear I'll stick my fat, American gun into somebody's culture, all in the guise of "saving them from themselves". Maybe that's what scares you the most. Don't worry, I'm not that wonderful. Never said that.

    So, maybe we can stick to the philosophical point of this discussion, concerning the use of sexism to control a person. Are you saying I'm off-topic?

    I believe nobody should have control over anybody's personal freedom. And who's to say what's someone's personal freedom? Re-read Cuchu's post, please...

    If that makes me an idealistic dreamer, then thanks! Think what you may, so will I. But, let's be careful not to label a culture in a way just because it's different...

    I'll take that as a compliment and go and enjoy my day.


    AngelEyes
    EDIT: As I proofread it, I notice it sounds much tougher in English than it would in Spanish. Sorry about that, my English lacks of the refining that a native speaker would have...
    Incipiente, como las muelas del juicio.

  18. #178
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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    Thanks, sweetheart...I love it when someone thinks I'm wonderful.

    If I were stuck in a culture that treated me as if I were invisible at best, and the chattel of some man, at worst...I'd be praying my ass off someone would come and save me.

    It's clear that you fear I'll stick my fat, American gun into somebody's culture, all in the guise of "saving them from themselves". Maybe that's what scares you the most. Don't worry, I'm not that wonderful.

    So, maybe we can stick to the philosophical point of this discussion, concerning the use of sexism to control a person.

    I believe nobody should have control over anybody's personal freedom.

    If that makes me an idealistic dreamer, then thanks!

    I'll take that as a compliment and go and enjoy my day.
    We all know what sexism means. That is simple. What you seem unable to grasp is the concept of "rights" as artificial constructions, not natural law. It has been explained very clearly, and you have failed to address it. Repeating that you believe people have the right to personal freedom and that you are an idealist doesn't take the discussion any further.
    Last edited by TrentinaNE; 30th January 2007 at 9:54 PM. Reason: End quote = [/quote]. :-)

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Angel Eyes
    We should all be free to choose, and no culture should have the power to deny us.
    Is this a discussion on sexism or "the freedom to choose"?

    Allow me to say, again, that those women who are born into a culture which is male dominated (see my post on Iran) have no desire to break away from their way of life.

    In my studies of anthropology, leading on from my specialist knowledge of prehistoric Britain (as an archaeologist) it is evident that early man was the provider - a strong, brave hunter of animals for food, and that woman was the nurturer - bearing and caring for her children and cooking the food for everyone. One has only to consider the primitive people who still inhabit the Earth. Some of them are not far removed from our earliest ancestors, except that they are no longer itinerant hunter-gatherers but live in settled communities where they keep animals and grow crops (rainfall permitting).

    I avidly watch any TV documentary on such people. What do I see? Happy, contented men, women and children, who have no thought of changing their way of life.

    When I was blessed with my two sons, educated though I am, my burning desire was to raise them myself. There was no way I was going to hand them over to a child minder while I continued with my career. My husband was earning enough to care for us all in relative comfort. And he shared in the care of our sons, spending all his spare time playing with them when they were small and taking them off on mountaineering expeditions when they were only 6 and 3 years old. They learned the joys of camping in the wilds of Scotland, learning the names of wild flowers, birds, trees, funghi, insects. At the age of 7, my elder son could name 69 varieties of wild flowers simply by looking at pictures of them.

    Sexism didn't come into it. I thoroughly enjoyed my role as nurturer and carer of my children and husband. We all adored each other. Admittedly my (late) husband said, when we were discussing having children, "I would sincerely hope that you will want to bring them up and not farm them out to some childminder." I told him that my love of any children would be so deep that I wouldn't be able to allow anyone else to care for them.

    Call it a mother's primitive urge to care for her offspring. I saw no sexism in what my husband said. In fact, I stayed at home for 15 years! My husband gave me a personal allowance each month.

    Finally I returned to work - a happy and contented mother with two sons to be immensely proud of.

    OK, I know I was living in fortunate circumstances, not available to everyone. I did very well on the day that I said "I do" to my precious husband.

    LRV

    PS: I also wish to add that it is in my nature to have a man to lean on and rely on. I am no feminist who thinks that she is stronger than a man. I like to be looked after by a man.
    Last edited by la reine victoria; 30th January 2007 at 9:30 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Sexism in the World

    Below edited for blank lines only.
    Quote Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post
    1. A berber tribesman can wish upon a star for as long as he likes but he will never be an astronaut.
    But he should have the opportunity to choose to leave his tribe and try, if he wants to. No one in the tribe should have the power to tell him he has to stay, or can never leave.
    2. I can train for my whole life but I will never be World Heavyweight Boxing Champion.
    Maybe you won't become a champion, but I have no right - and neither does anyone else here on this board - to tell you that you can't try.
    That's my point.
    AngelEyes
    Do I now understand you to be saying that everybody has the right to try to be any thing they want to be.
    I am totally cool with that concept I just believe that it is not conceivable that everybody has the right to be any thing they want.

    A dictator is a person who believes that they have the rights to be what they want while a senator is a person who became what they wanted.

    That is my difficulty with the concept of rights.

    I don't believe that I have the absolute right to do many things.

    I have the right to do a couple of the things all of the time and some of the things some of the time and a few of the things most of the time but if I try to do all of the things all of the time I will wind up doing time for a long time.

    .,,

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