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Thread: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

  1. #21
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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Joca and badgrammar:

    The curious thing, then, would be how these "facts" of "hard-wiring" in us are to be established? How can we, as it were, disconnect us from the ideological surrounding in which we exist, to determine what lies "underneath" or "behind" what we do and think and say? How are we to make sense of the fact that ideals change? Is it that fertility changes at the same time? And what says that "big boobs" or "hourglass shape" or some other stereotype of "beauty" make women more fertile?? Big breasts can be difficult to live with, so go figure. Neither does a big cock, the fancy fantasy of all men, if some sources are to be taken seriously, make a man more fertile. (Though, curiously, it is usually women's fertility that comes up for discussion. Wonder why ) And what does fertility have to do with it all? Not even the most hardcore sociobiologist can make a coherent, convincing claim for the importance of fertility *as such* in biological evolution.

    I don't deny that we are physical beings, and it is NOT in my ideal vision of society and human life, that we "appreciate each other for non-physical traits alone". "I love you for your soul and mind, not your body", certainly doesn't sound flattering to me, and even less is it an expression of love (what it does express, I would rather not even think about). What I am saying is instead, that love SEES beauty, and I cannot stress this enough. Can you genuinly say you love a person, yet at the same time think of him or her as ugly? I simply think it is impossible, unless that love in question is utterly weird and non-loving. The physical dimension of our lives is obviously important, we are bodies, in a sense of saying it, as the beings we are we relate to others and their and our bodies are always involved. That is true for any age.

    And no, I am not one of those people you seem to want to refer to, "young people not yet wise enough to see other things than certain golden ratios" and other nonsensicalities.

    I may sound harsh, and I honestly apologise, but I am genuinly offended, saddened and upset that people take to heart such twisted ideas of seeing others.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by badgrammar View Post
    Jonquiliser, I understand that you don't agree with much of what has been said here. In an ideal world, I don't either. In an ideal world, people look straight into other peoples' hearts and love intellectually before loving physically, and attraction is solely based on non-physical attributes.

    But human beings are animals, and like any animal, they are driven by certain biological imperatives. One of which is reproduction. And the manner in which human beings, like other species, evolved to choose their mates involves a lot of visual criteria, whether this pleases us or not. And in women, external signs of fertility and the ability to bear children are right up there. We can obviously, as thinking human beings, get around this, thank your deity of choice. But it is there.

    I don't believe that all studies refered to above are the product of pseudo-science or of some ideological agenda put forth by society. There have been some excellent and highly scientific studies on such matters, as they are questions of great interest.

    I believe we are absolutely genetically pre-disposed to some behaviors. There are things that men and women are "hard-wired" to do. Were there not, the human race, like any other, would have died out long ago.
    I concur with the above comments. I also think that to wonder why we are the way we are is only normal and that people should subject this to scientific scrutiny or academic study is perfectly natural. It is a question for which there may never be a complete answer, but that doesn't mean that people should not want to find out. I have my own theory which is that physical attraction is the exact opposite of magnetic attraction where opposites attract. In humans physical attraction is often towards people that we resemble. I am often struck by the extent to which couples resemble one another as if they could be siblings. I'm sure this has been studied as well. Perhaps someone knows.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Even babies (from all over the world) tend to stare at symetrical faces (beauty) more than unsymetrical faces.

    To me, the fact that newborn babies stare at faces in general more intensely than any other object in the world means that what we are "drawn to" has a deep biological basis.

    I don't see how anyone can deny this.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonquiliser View Post
    Joca and badgrammar:

    ... (snip)...

    And no, I am not one of those people you seem to want to refer to, "young people not yet wise enough to see other things than certain golden ratios" and other nonsensicalities.

    I may sound harsh, and I honestly apologise, but I am genuinly offended, saddened and upset that people take to heart such twisted ideas of seeing others.
    Well, I want to apologize to you if I have inadvertently offended you by means of any of my personal hunches. I don't think I have a distorted view of youth. Not even all young people hold the same values, you know. This is just a discussion, not a competition, not an attack, we are just exposing our opinions, and as far as I am concerned, I am not trying to label anyone whomsoever. I can only talk of my own experience: when I was young, beauty was more important for me than it is now, maybe never so important as it was to most guys the same age, but it was. Now I try to look deeper. Or in other words, beauty for me is not ONLY on your surface, but also (and mainly) in the way you relate to other people and move about in your own life. But I will never attempt to deny the biological forces that are still in force in us, to different degrees.

    JC

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Around here, from my observation of the species, I can state categorically that a heartbeat and a few limbs are all that seem to matter. All sorts of shapes and sizes seem to register with someone!

    There is a sort of beauty/talent pagent here called The Rose of Tralee. Named after a beautiful woman in a well-known Irish song, the competition is held annually in the town of Tralee. It is open to women which some Irish heritage, from anywhere in the world. The only way to enter is through a locally held eliminator and the winner of that is deemed to be the "London Rose" or the "New York Rose". Every year there are about 30 or 40 contestants and there is a wide variety of looks and personalities among them. The public rarely seem to agree on which is most likely to win.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by meeryanah View Post
    Hello everyone!
    I was just wondering, as the title sasy, what would be a beautiful man or a woman in your country.
    I'm aware that different people have different tastes, but in general, what would you say?
    Do men need to have muscles and do women need to be thin with big breasts, to be atractive to a wider number of people?
    I believe there are types of answers to this question:

    Society's version of a beautiful (wo)man: Especially, IMO, for women. We should be stick thin, blond, etc... I think this is necessary to point out because there is so much societal pressure on women to look a certain way. But does that really matter in the end? Probably not, but it certainly makes women do crazy things to look that way or act that way. Same goes for men, too. I'm just a female so that's why I'm saying women.

    Individual opinions: this can be anything.
    In tennis the addict moves about a hard rectangle and seeks to ambush a fuzzy ball with a modified snow-shoe. ~Elliot Chaze

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joca View Post
    Well, I want to apologize to you if I have inadvertently offended you by means of any of my personal hunches. I don't think I have a distorted view of youth. Not even all young people hold the same values, you know. This is just a discussion, not a competition, not an attack, we are just exposing our opinions, and as far as I am concerned, I am not trying to label anyone whomsoever. I can only talk of my own experience: when I was young, beauty was more important for me than it is now, maybe never so important as it was to most guys the same age, but it was. Now I try to look deeper. Or in other words, beauty for me is not ONLY on your surface, but also (and mainly) in the way you relate to other people and move about in your own life. But I will never attempt to deny the biological forces that are still in force in us, to different degrees.

    JC
    Hello Joca,

    my apology was rather about the rest of my message(s), and not about what I said about youth. (I don't count myself in on your desription of youth anyway, and I don't really care what you do chose to think on that, I'll just take you to be wrong if you insist on thinking so of me!) Anyway, I don't really believe your conception of youth is all wrong, I do believe there is much of what you describe around *(though I am not so sure that it is more true of younger people.. I'll abstain from giving examples, for the sake of peace of mind). My desagreement is in the explanation we give for that fact.

    And to that I can add that I don't deny there are "biological forces", as you choose to describe them, in us, what I do deny is that they are what you claim they are. I believe it often works like this: first there is an idea of what those "forces" will be, and then people act out on them. So then, in the doings of people, you will find "evidence" of those forces. But that doesn't mean that the forces are biological, as in "in our genes".

    HistofEng; in no way do I want to deny the importance of the face for the newborn baby!! Of course that is tremendous, and yes, it is related to our condition as "biological beings" (if that is how you wish to put it). But the "symmetry" bit, I toss straight in the bin. I mean, what is it supposed to mean? That babies with parents of "symmetrical facial features" will be happier?! What can I say, I am lost for words because I simply don't understand what on earth it is supposed to mean.

    Regards,
    jonqui

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Jonquil,

    I understand your views, but I don't really understand the offence you take at what has been said. A while back I was involved in another thread about differences between men and women and it got rather heated, because I maintained that we have a lot of differences, aside from our genitalia, and another poster (or two) thought this was an awful thing to say, and believed that to be totally unfounded.

    I guess I don't think that recognition of the biological differences between the sexes means that someone can then say "So, you see, women are better than men" or vice versa. In the same light, I don't think that trying to understand the biological and evolutionary basis of mating behavior in the human species is like saying "So see, women with big hips and small waists are superior".

    If I had a little more time here tonight I'd go fishing around the web, and I'm sure I could find lots and lots of decent research (methodologically speaking) that addresses these issues.

    You said: "I believe it often works like this: first there is an idea of what those "forces" will be, and then people act out on them. So then, in the doings of people, you will find "evidence" of those forces. But that doesn't mean that the forces are biological, as in "in our genes"."

    I don't believe that people behave solely based on sociological formulations - I think with that assertion, you're putting the cart before the horse. Some things are in our genes, and highly influenced by our hormones (the influence of testosterone on the male brain begins during gestation, and its effects are not only powerful but also well-researched).

    Denying biological predisposition seems silly to me, but to each his own.
    Last edited by badgrammar; 19th March 2007 at 9:13 PM. Reason: Forgot some stuff

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonquiliser View Post
    HistofEng; in no way do I want to deny the importance of the face for the newborn baby!! Of course that is tremendous, and yes, it is related to our condition as "biological beings" (if that is how you wish to put it). But the "symmetry" bit, I toss straight in the bin. I mean, what is it supposed to mean? That babies with parents of "symmetrical facial features" will be happier?! What can I say, I am lost for words because I simply don't understand what on earth it is supposed to mean.

    Regards,
    jonqui
    Symmetry is regarded across cultures (and ages, and races, etc, etc....across the board) as the cornerstone of what tends to be considered physically attractive (this is not to say that one cannot be attracted to unsymmetical faces).

    When people are shown photographs of strangers and are asked to score them based on their attractiveness, the most symmetrical faces, the waist to hip ratio closest to the golden ratio (which is differenct for men and women), etc are the ones who receive the highest score. And it's the same all around the world.

    Of course some cultures like thicker, or bigger women, others like blonde hair, etc, but the waist to hip ratio that is most desired (regardless of size) is the same all over the planet.

    Of course with babies, we can't ask them directly what they consider beautiful, all we can do is observe what objects they spend the most time examining, or how dialated their pupils get when staring at particular objects. What we have found (very much conclusively) is that babies spend much more time gazing faces more than any other object in the world, and furthermore, when presented with the same photographs of strangers, tend to stare at those with more symmetrical faces than the others.

    You may say it's a coincidence, but I don't think so, I think that babies (relatively untainted by cultural conditioning) are showing us that there is a basic characteristic of attractiveness that people perceive, in general, and that we are born with.

    Maybe it would be better (or maybe you would be more comfortable) if we used the term "attractiveness" rather than "beauty." I can sort of see where you may be coming from. When I see my mom, or some of my friends, I see them as such beautiful people, the way they dress, smile, stand, walk, etc. But I generally don't find them that attractive.
    Last edited by HistofEng; 20th March 2007 at 12:16 AM.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    badgrammar, I am completely sure too that you can find tons of research on the topic, and it may very well be good or even excellent in terms of methodology. But what's this when the fundamental perspective from which the whole idea of making such research (and why would one, anyway? For whom is it a question "which kind of features are the most beautiful"?? - as if there were such a thing, but anyway) is flawed? The most brilliant and reputable scientists can do the most stupid research. There is nothing in the fact that something has been "investigated scientifically" to warrant that the investigation was good, or even intelligible (unfortunately, one would wish a little more of science). As brief comment, I don't deny biological predispositions, I just don't think that it is always very clear WHAT this are. (The issue of differences I'll just have to skip, it is an interesting issue, that all too often is simplified into unintelligibility, but also a large topic and time is short.. But it doesn't mean I think your remarks are irrelevant or uninteresting!)

    And about the symmetry still, HistofEng, I am not convinced by the fact that a baby looks for a longer period of time on a face, that we can thus speak of attraction to that face. And anyway, we aren't "amorphous" creatures, so obviously it "matters" in a way, what we look like. But I think that is a point rather far removed from the one you wish to make..(?) Finally, I don't think the distinction between "culturally conditioned" and "natural" does such a lot of work in making the issue any clearer. Especially, because I wonder what culturally conditioned is supposed to mean at all..? can we imagine a person not "conditioned" (though I wouldn't choose that word, as it seems to be implying something very specific about what culture is, i.e. something that "thwarts" a natural character of sth/smn) by culture, yet being someone who we can at all understand, and who will at all share values we may have?

    Unfortunately, as for many here I guess, my time is limited and I can't go any further into this, and we just have to leave it at this disagreement. But I hope I at least made a little clearer what I think and why I see problems in some of the ways of talking about beauty that have come up in this thread.

    Regards,

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    The first time I heard about beauty connected with symmetry and related issues was in an interview with Karl Grammer I saw on Spanish TV. Karl Grammer is a completely serious scientist who has carried out lots of research in the field of human etyology. And later on I discovered that there are actually a lot of researchers in this field in many universities reaching very clear and scientifically acceptable conclusions like the ones badgrammar was mentioning (by the way, I think your posts in this thread are excellent).

    I think Jonquilizer has made a clear mistake by underrating this kind of research and calling it pseudoscience.

    My personal opinion about the issue, from my own personal experience and what I have read in books or on the Internet or what I have seen in TV documentaries, is that the patters of human beauty are basically the same for all of us, with little personal or regional variation.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Although I am aware of the cultural definition of beauty that is found in a man or woman, I will forego that definition. Not to say that I don't admire the human form, but real beauty, to quote the cliché, comes from within. Beauty on the outside can be instantly negated by ugliness on the inside.
    Chas.
    "If I speak like men and angels, but have not love, I am only making irritating noise..." (1Cor13:1)

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzByChas View Post
    Although I am aware of the cultural definition of beauty that is found in a man or woman, I will forego that definition. Not to say that I don't admire the human form, but real beauty, to quote the cliché, comes from within. Beauty on the outside can be instantly negated by ugliness on the inside.
    The extent to which I agree with you cannot be understated!

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonquiliser View Post
    Not even the most hardcore sociobiologist can make a coherent, convincing claim for the importance of fertility *as such* in biological evolution.
    You must be kidding. If we don't replicate we will not exist anymore.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by meeryanah View Post
    Hello everyone!
    I was just wondering, as the title sasy, what would be a beautiful man or a woman in your country.
    I'm aware that different people have different tastes, but in general, what would you say?
    Do men need to have muscles and do women need to be thin with big breasts, to be atractive to a wider number of people?
    The V-shaped torso, as in most cultures, is considered to be an attractive feature of men in American culture. A good example of a currently popular celebrity considered attractive by American women would be Johnny Depp.

    As for American women, I think the "thin with big breasts" thing is still considered attractive, though it's a bit of a cliche and American men are more accepting of non-thin women. The whole "pencil-thin model" thing has been out for some time and curvier (but not fat) women are being considered more attractive.

    The hips thing kind of interests me...American men do not seem to have the same obsession with caderas / cadeiras that Latin men do. I wonder why this is.

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Another well made point, BG...as you said in an earlier post, true beauty starts to emanate from within, and the most beautiful person is one with whom you are willing to spend a lifetime, loving (as in the verb, not the "feeling") them through good and bad. This even works with a very close friend. It's sort of like the theory in most dating sites these days: it helps to be attracted to someone with whom you are compatible, and share similar interests.

    So, "beauty" is a very subjective thing, but can be measured most effectively in character.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadGrammar
    But I find that most of these paramaters find their excpetion, because while it's nice to look at someone like that, spending and investing a lifetime with them is quite another story!
    Chas.
    "If I speak like men and angels, but have not love, I am only making irritating noise..." (1Cor13:1)

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    Re: A beautiful (wo)man in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRG View Post
    I concur with the above comments. I also think that to wonder why we are the way we are is only normal and that people should subject this to scientific scrutiny or academic study is perfectly natural. It is a question for which there may never be a complete answer, but that doesn't mean that people should not want to find out. I have my own theory which is that physical attraction is the exact opposite of magnetic attraction where opposites attract. In humans physical attraction is often towards people that we resemble. I am often struck by the extent to which couples resemble one another as if they could be siblings. I'm sure this has been studied as well. Perhaps someone knows.
    Well, I wouldn't go as far as to presume that I know, but I've read before that the reason why it seems that couples resemble each other is because they spend so much time together. Before very long (I haven't read any figures, but I would expect just a few days are enough), people start adopting each other's mannerisms and body language. Just as with entertainers who "impersonate" celebrities, it's not really a matter of looking very much alike (which is difficult) or sounding exactly alike (which is virtually impossible), but of having similar gestures and speech cadences. But after a while of subconsciously imitating each other's "quirks", facial muscles and other fine-motor control muscles develop similarly and help the observer find those couple remarkably similar in appearance. And, sometimes, even in temperament. I mean, after all, many of our responses to situations are often expressed mainly with body language.

    Or something...
    ¿88 relatos descarriados? Un leve desliz…

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    beauty standards in your country

    How are beauty standards (for men and women) in your country? What traits are considered sexiest in your country (eyes, body, breasts, hair, height, weight, etc.) and why do you think that is?

    I've read that in some cultures, being fat (which shows fertility) is considered more beautiful than skinny. Apparently (I don't know if this is a fact), their women are force-fed so they are fatter. However for me, the most beautiful people I have seen are either a little chubby, average, or a little skinny (not TOO skinny). I don't think I could ever consider fatness or extreme thinness a hot trait, and many people in the US agree with me.

    I know Asian girls who think some Asian actors are "hot," but when I look at them, I think they look way too feminine. They're also too skinny, too short, and other characteristics I would not consider hot in a man. Asian cultures more often like breasts, but it seems like Western cultures are more often interested in a nice body. Also, they really like manipulating their eyelids so they don't have such Asian eyes, which I think is stupid but understandable.

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    Re: beauty standards in your country

    Hi Musical,

    I don't know how to link a thread but this topic was already discussed a few weeks ago in a thread named "A beautiful (wo)man in your country". You may want to look for it.


    MODERATOR EDIT:

    The 2 threads have now been merged. Thank you.
    Last edited by zebedee; 22nd April 2007 at 11:31 AM. Reason: add Moderator Edit

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    Re: beauty standards in your country

    Quote Originally Posted by Musical Chairs View Post
    How are beauty standards (for men and women) in your country? What traits are considered sexiest in your country (eyes, body, breasts, hair, height, weight, etc.) and why do you think that is?
    Eyes first with daylight second and then body.
    Height, weight, shape, hair, teeth, colour, etcetera are irrelevent as long as you have an assortment that is basically symmetrical.
    Extreme thinness is considered odd and therefore unattraactive.
    Extreme fatness is considered odd and therefore unattractive.
    Extreme beauty is considered odd and therefore unattractive.

    Beauty in all cultures is based on symmetry. Nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musical Chairs View Post
    I've read that in some cultures, being fat (which shows fertility) is considered more beautiful than skinny.
    Possibly. It sounds logical.
    Which cultures?


    Quote Originally Posted by Musical Chairs View Post
    Apparently (I don't know if this is a fact), their women are force-fed so they are fatter.
    I am actually quite looking forward to the response of a person with more than a passing interest in equality to examine this clanger!
    Their women indeed!
    You sound like you are discussing geese having food crammed down their gullet through a funnel held in the paws of a grimy peasant who owns his wife as a chattel.
    This should be interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Musical Chairs View Post
    However for me, the most beautiful people I have seen are either a little chubby, average, or a little skinny (not TOO skinny). I don't think I could ever consider fatness or extreme thinness a hot trait, and many people in the US agree with me.
    No great insight here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musical Chairs View Post
    I know Asian girls who think some Asian actors are "hot," but when I look at them, I think they look way too feminine. They're also too skinny, too short, and other characteristics I would not consider hot in a man. Asian cultures more often like breasts, but it seems like Western cultures are more often interested in a nice body. Also, they really like manipulating their eyelids so they don't have such Asian eyes, which I think is stupid but understandable.
    You must be kidding. Introduce me to a bloke who doesn't like breasts and I'll shake hands with a homosexual.

    My opinion is that this question is based on observation gleaned from television and movies not reality.

    .,,

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