Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 176

Thread: Etymology: Earth

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Native language
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Posts
    76

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    Arabic was a dominant language in Mesopotamia (or, let's call it Iraq), centuries before Islam.
    The word can't have been borrowed from Kurdish into Arabic because there are clear cognates in Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., demonstrating that the word "ardh" is clearly Semitic origin.
    Hi,

    Mesopotamia is a Greek word and means " place betwen two rivers"...Tigris and Eouphrates rivers...These two words also is Greek...But I'm sure Tigris( which means tiger in Greek) comes from Armenian word Tigra...And eouphrades comes from Armenian Ophrat or Kurdish Ferat...There's been no
    Arabic in these places at all ...Mountains are " Nemrud, Judi,Artos, Agri..and so on" No Arabic at all...Some cities are " Hakkari, Mardin, Midyat, Derik, Van,Zaxo,Colemerik,Urfa, Bidlis..so on" No Arabic at all...By the way, Mesopotamia doesnot include any historic Arabic land...For example Basra is not in Mesopotamia...Damascus (historically has got nothing to do with Arabs) is not in Mesopotamia..Even Baghdat is not connected to those places historically...Earth has a clear connection with " erde " in German and so with " erd" Kurdish...I showed quiet strong clues related to this word in Kurdish...Or( fire- food) Ar/er( fit; match up),Ard( flour) and Erd= Earth...I suggest you guys to show us related words from Arabic to your so called proof " Arddh" ; probably we'll learn all together...Mean time, before Arabs merged to historical grounds, Assyrians were in Mesopotamia and now in Syria, Iraq, Palestine...Even Jesus spoke Assyrian...The word Allah is Assyrian....So what you claim is totally wrong..There was no Arabic in Mesopotamia ( between two rivers) at all, before Islam...
    Last edited by Canbek; 23rd July 2012 at 2:31 AM.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    England
    Native language
    English
    Age
    26
    Posts
    201

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Oh, where to begin.
    I'll try to keep my reply linguistically focused.

    Yes, the word Mesopotamia is Greek for "between two rivers", but what of it? We use the word Mesopotamia in English for ancient Iraq, but in Arabic we would say "bilad al-raafidain" (country of two rivers). The names we use depend on the language we're speaking. According to Wikipedia, both the names Tigris and Euphrates can be traced back to Elamite and Akkadian names, and Tigris back to Sumerian (Euphrates probably also has a Sumerian root which we don't know).
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Mesopotamia does not include any historic Arabic land", Baghdad and Basra are certainly in the area that we refer to as Mesopotamia. Perhaps you mean that they aren't Ancient, 2,000 year-old cities, but what has that to do with it? Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Akkadian, the language of Assyria (even when Aramaic was the dominant language in the Middle-East, I believe it was never more than on equal terms with Akkadian in the Assyrian/Babylonian empires; linguistic historians corrects me if I'm wrong). The word Allah is Arabic.

    What, I claim, however, is correct. Arabic was a dominant language in Iraq before Islam. The Persians, when they conquered it as part of their empire, called it Arabistan- land of the Arabs. The Arabic city of Hira (next to modern Najaf) was founded in the 2nd Century AD (I believe).

    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    It's possible that the Kurdish word "erd" is related to the English word "earth". I really have far to few expertise to make a judgement, though I get the feeling that it's imported from Arabic.
    What I CAN say for sure is that Arabic "ardh" does NOT come from Kurdish "erd", and that Arabic was NOT brought to Iraq with Islam.
    Last edited by Ihsiin; 23rd July 2012 at 3:21 AM.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Native language
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Posts
    76

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    Oh, where to begin.
    I'll try to keep my reply linguistically focused.

    Yes, the word Mesopotamia is Greek for "between two rivers", but what of it? We use the word Mesopotamia in English for ancient Iraq, but in Arabic we would say "bilad al-raafidain" (country of two rivers). The names we use depend on the language we're speaking. According to Wikipedia, both the names Tigris and Euphrates can be traced back to Elamite and Akkadian names, and Tigris back to Sumerian (Euphrates probably also has a Sumerian root which we don't know).
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Mesopotamia does not include any historic Arabic land", Baghdad and Basra are certainly in the area that we refer to as Mesopotamia. Perhaps you mean that they aren't Ancient, 2,000 year-old cities, but what has that to do with it? Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Akkadian, the language of Assyria (even when Aramaic was the dominant language in the Middle-East, I believe it was never more than on equal terms with Akkadian in the Assyrian/Babylonian empires; linguistic historians corrects me if I'm wrong). The word Allah is Arabic.

    What, I claim, however, is correct. Arabic was a dominant language in Iraq before Islam. The Persians, when they conquered it as part of their empire, called it Arabistan- land of the Arabs. The Arabic city of Hira (next to modern Najaf) was founded in the 2nd Century AD (I believe).

    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    It's possible that the Kurdish word "erd" is related to the English word "earth". I really have far to few expertise to make a judgement, though I get the feeling that it's imported from Arabic.
    What I CAN say for sure is that Arabic "ardh" does NOT come from Kurdish "erd", and that Arabic was NOT brought to Iraq with Islam.
    Well, you stick to your beliefs...Word Allah is Assyrian...Arabic has got nothing to do with Northern Mesopotamia before Islam...There's no towns founded by Arabics,after or before islam, there is no river, mountain, hill named Arabic...There's no food named in Arabic or invented, brought by Arabic...There is no " ancient Iraq" as a whole. Parts of this state, historically-culturelly-ethnically not connected to each other...Geographically either...Necef has got nothing to do with the mountainous area stretching from Mt.Agri( Urartu, Ararat- this word is a version of Urartu and named by Assyrians) down south to Zaxo, now in Iraq republic...What I CAN say for sure is that " erd" has got nothing to do with Arabic...By the way, Kurdish Jews had no reason and relation to borrow " Erd" from Arabic...They would instead borrow the Hebrew or Assyrian version, had they borrowed from a semitic language...Jesus spoke Assyrian which is regarded as the continuation of Aramaic..

    Germanic " erde" matchs up with Kurdish "Erd"...Many words related to Erd do exist in Kurdish, I provided to you guys allready...

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Word Allah is Assyrian...
    This is nonsense and you know it. Allah < Al Ilah simply meas "the diety". Finding cognates in other Semitic languages is hardly surprising and it doesn't make Allah any less Arabic. Besides, the question is off-topic here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Germanic " erde" matchs up with Kurdish "Erd"...Many words related to Erd do exist in Kurdish, I provided to you guys allready...
    They are possibly cognates. But that they "match" does not prove anything.
    Last edited by berndf; 23rd July 2012 at 10:31 AM.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Hi,

    In Kurdish, "ard/erd" means soil,cultivable land...
    borrowed from Arabic ارض
    Why do you think so? Because of the ending -d rather than -t, as we find it in Middle Iranian (source)?

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Native language
    Australian English
    Posts
    1,559

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Mesopotamia is a Greek word and means " place betwen two rivers"...Tigris and Eouphrates rivers...These two words also is Greek...But I'm sure Tigris( which means tiger in Greek) comes from Armenian word Tigra...And eouphrades comes from Armenian Ophrat or Kurdish Ferat...
    The river was known in Akkadian as Purrat (and is still known as Furrat in Arabic till this day) long before the Greeks were even heard of.

    The Kurdish Ferat is probably a borrowing from this Arabic rendering.

    Ditto for Dijlah (the Arabic name for the Tigris).

    So both these rivers' names clearly show an Arabic -> Kurdish borrowing.

    Honestly, I'm stumbling to understand why you are so ashamed of having Arabic influence on your language... I get that you think it harms your nationalist struggle or something, but really come on, we're all adults here, discussing language, objectively. Please try to leave such petty nationalist disputes aside.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Native language
    French (France)
    Posts
    3,243

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Why do you think so? Because of the ending -d rather than -t, as we find it in Middle Iranian (source)?
    The entry for “earth” in this “Online Etymological Dictioanary” reads:

    “O.E. eorþe "ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the (material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from P.Gmc. *ertho (cf. O.Fris. erthe "earth," O.S. ertha, O.N. jörð, M.Du. eerde, Du. aarde, O.H.G. erda, Ger. Erde, Goth. airþa), from PIE root *er- (2) "earth, ground" (cf. M.Ir. -ert "earth"). The earth considered as a planet was so called from c.1400.”

    M.Ir. = Middle Irish. Not Middle Iranian.
    This root does not have any cognates in Indo-Aryan or Iranian.

    By the way: I fail to see the etymological relevance of the last sentence (the Earth considered as a planet....). The Earth was of course considered a planet only after Copernicus (died 1543).

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    M.Ir. = Middle Irish. Not Middle Iranian.
    Ooops, that explains it.
    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    I fail to see the etymological relevance of the last sentence (the Earth considered as a planet....).
    The dictionary lists the etymologies by meaning. And the meaning "earth" as a planet first occurred in the early 15th century. The term "planet" should be understood to mean "celestial body". Of course earth was not considered a planet by 1400, actually also not when Copernicus died. The view of "earth" as a planet gained ground only in the second half of the 17th century.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Turkey
    Native language
    Turkish
    Age
    36
    Posts
    89

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Hi,

    This word also exists in Kurdish, in a close but different meaning...By the way, had Kurdish borrowed " ard/erd" from Arabic, it would have been " arz" rather than " Ard"..Because these " d" letters, somehow changes to " z" in Kurdish, if borrowed from Arabic...Such as " Ramadan" as " Ramazan"...And borrowed by Turkish from Kurdish this way too..." Ard" becomes "arz" and used in Turkish more likely borrowed from Armenian as earth...
    Turkish words that are used in islamic literature are either from Persian or Arabic.Also we Turks tend to pronounce the Arabic ''dh'' sound as ''z''.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Native language
    Australian English
    Posts
    1,559

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Melaike View Post
    Also we Turks tend to pronounce the Arabic ''dh'' sound as ''z''.
    As is demonstrated above, not in all cases. Yes it is the most frequent transliteration, but 'd' is also used sometimes.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Rashid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Melaike View Post
    Also we Turks tend to pronounce the Arabic ''dh'' sound as ''z''.
    As is demonstrated above, not in all cases. Yes it is the most frequent transliteration, but 'd' is also used sometimes.
    I think, "dh" always becomes "z". But here our issue is "" and not "dh" and concerning "" you are right.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor...
    Why? Proto-Semitic *ṣ́ > ض in Arabic, *ṣ́ > צ in Hebrew and *ṣ́ > ק or ע in Aramaic is precisely what you expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    ..., so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    ... or loaned at a very early stage when *ṣ́ still existed as separate and identically pronounced phonemes in all three languages or their predecessors.
    Last edited by berndf; 23rd July 2012 at 4:57 PM.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    England
    Native language
    English
    Age
    26
    Posts
    201

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Why? Proto-Semitic *ṣ́ > ض in Arabic, *ṣ́ > צ in Hebrew and *ṣ́ > ק or ע in Aramaic is precisely what you expect.
    Exactly, that's what I was saying (that "was" should have been a "has"- excuse my dyslexia).

    ... or loaned at a very early stage when *ṣ́ still existed as separate and identically pronounced phonemes in all three languages or their predecessors.
    True. It would still preclude a Kurdish import.
    (In fact, come to think of it, a simple consideration of the occurrence of the letter dhad in the Arabic would rule out a Kurdish origin.)

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    Exactly, that's what I was saying (that "was" should have been a "has"- excuse my dyslexia).
    Sorry, I misunderstood you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    True. It would still preclude a Kurdish import.
    (In fact, come to think of it, a simple consideration of the occurrence of the letter dhad in the Arabic would rule out a Kurdish origin.)
    Sure by giving these conditions I wanted to demonstrate how unlikely this should be.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Native language
    Australian English
    Posts
    1,559

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    I think, "dh" always becomes "z". But here our issue is "" and not "dh" and concerning "" you are right.
    We are talking about ض, which almost always does become 'z' in Turkish, but not in all cases. I think when people have been writing "dh" they've been referring to ض

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Rashid View Post
    I think when people have been writing "dh" they've been referring to ض
    There must have been some kind of a confusion. "dh" is a transliteration for ذ and not for ض. And ذ always becomes "z" in Modern Turkish.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Native language
    Australian English
    Posts
    1,559

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    There must have been some kind of a confusion. "dh" is a transliteration for ذ and not for ض. And ذ always becomes "z" in Modern Turkish.
    Yes it is usually a transliteration for ذ but in this case, I'm pretty sure they meant ض for which it's sometimes used, eg. ramadhan.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Native language
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Posts
    76

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    This is nonsense and you know it. Allah < Al Ilah simply meas "the diety". Finding cognates in other Semitic languages is hardly surprising and it doesn't make Allah any less Arabic. Besides, the question is off-topic here.
    They are possibly cognates. But that they "match" does not prove anything.
    Hi,

    There's been quiet interesting developments in the forum; I'm an old man, gone go to bed soon, however, you deserve a quick responde, for the others, some other day hopefully...

    The non sense you are talking about was an absolute non sense for me too, until 12 years ago..Thanks to Internet era, we are learning ( if we want to)...Assyrian and Aramaic is regarded as pretty much similar and Assyrian is the continuation of it.Plus, Assyrians claim that( and taken serious by a lot) they are the oldest people in Middle east...I'm not sure whether their claim extend to Northern Mesopotamia or not, but a part of this unlucky people has been there abouts for couple of- if not more- millenniums...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    By the way, I'm a bit confused about Indo-Aryan...What's Indo-Aryan ?

    The word " Ar" as a root of many words exist in Kurdish among the IE languages( may be in armenian too)...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    You or some one gotta show me , for example from Arabic Ardd, related words...I don't understand, why wouldn't no one do it( Arabic fellows)...Or Hebrew speaking, if there is any in this platform...I wish there was an Assyrian...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    Sorry for " off" topic, but probably we might need a flexible methodology while searching the roots of words, and it's hidden in history( you name it)

    Have fun and sorry for head ache.
    Last edited by berndf; 24th July 2012 at 10:56 PM.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Assyrian and Aramaic is regarded as pretty much similar and Assyrian is the continuation of it.
    There is no language called "Assyrian". The term is sometimes used for:
    - The Assyrian dialect of Akkadian (an extinct language)
    - A variety of Modern Aramaic called "Assyrian Neo-Aramaic" (a living language).
    I guess you refer to the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    Plus, Assyrians claim that( and taken serious by a lot) they are the oldest people in Middle east
    Many people claim a lot of rubbish. All Semitic languages derive from a common ancestor and are therefore of equal age. Asking if Aramaic is older or younger than Arabic is indeed nonsense.

    You can ask which is the old attested Semitic language, i.e. of which we have written documents; there the answer is: Akkadian. The oldest known written texts in Akkadian are about 4600 years old. The oldest Aramaic inscriptions are less than 3000 years old.

    There still is an older attested language in the Mesopotamian area but that is not Semitic: Sumerian. It actually doesn't belong to any know group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    By the way, I'm a bit confused about Indo-Aryan...What's Indo-Aryan ?
    A group of Indo-European languages spoken on the Indian sub-continent. They are a sub-group of the Indo-Iranian languages, the group to which also Kurdish belongs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canbek View Post
    I wish there was an Assyrian...
    This has been told to you before:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsiin View Post
    Back to "erd" and "ardh".The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    The Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic words are exactly what you expect, if it is a native Semitic word inherited from Proto-Semitic. This pretty much excludes the possibility of the word being a loan from outside the Semitic group.
    Last edited by berndf; 24th July 2012 at 5:12 PM.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Etymology: Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Rashid View Post
    I'm pretty sure they meant ض
    Who knows. "dh" for ض is a misleading transcription and that needed to be clarified.

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •