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Thread: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

  1. #1
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    The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Hi,

    How do we express a "the...the" expression in Arabic? Examples:
    - The more children you have, the less freedom you can enjoy.
    - The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    With great thanks who would provide suggestions.
    Aydin

  2. #2
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    I'll attempt to give a suggestion
    كلما زاد عدد الأولاد قلت حرية الأبوين
    أصبحت الحكاية مملة بقدر ما كانت طويلا
    Last edited by licinio; 4th May 2007 at 3:32 PM.

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    كلما ازداد عدد الأولاد كلما قلت حرية الأبوين

    Notice that I would repeat كلما.

    أصبحت الحكاية مملة بقدر ما كانت طويلا

    كلما طالت القصة كلما أصبحت مملة/متعبة

    So the formula is كلما...كلما, with verbs in the past tense.
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  4. #4
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Yes, kullama is the right choice.

    But we don't have to use it twice:
    كلما ازداد عدد الأولاد قلت حرية الأبوين
    كلما طالت القصة صارت مملة

    I'd like to add what I found in my grammar book:
    The sentence with "kullama" is أسلوب شرط but kullama doesn't put the verb in the case of الجزم , like لو، لولا، إذا، لمّا . And كلما: ظرف للماضي، ولا يليه إلا الفعل الماضي

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherine View Post
    But we don't have to use it twice:
    Perhaps my tendency to repeat it is a dialectal influence. In Palestinian Arabic, it must be repeated:

    كل ما كتروا الولاد كل ما قلت حرية الأبو والإم - Kul ma kitru liwlaad kul ma 2allat 7urriyyet il2abu wil2im.
    كل ما طولت القصة كل ما صارت تزهق أكتر - Kul ma Tiwlat il2uSSa kul ma Saarat itzahhe2 aktar.

    What about other dialects?
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  6. #6
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by elroy View Post
    Perhaps my tendency to repeat it is a dialectal influence. In Palestinian Arabic, it must be repeated:

    كل ما كتروا الولاد كل ما قلت حرية الأبو والإم - Kul ma kitru liwlaad kul ma 2allat 7urriyyet il2abu wil2im.
    كل ما طولت القصة كل ما صارت تزهق أكتر - Kul ma Tiwlat il2uSSa kul ma Saarat itzahhe2 aktar.

    What about other dialects?
    كلما كثرو العيال قلت حريتك
    كلما صارت القصة طويلة ، صارت مملة
    كلما طالت القصة ، صارت مملة
    إن كنت ريحاً فقد لاقيت إعصاراً

  7. #7
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Hi All

    My preliminary findings have it that repeating كلما does happen quite often, but that it is a common mistake. If you conduct a google search for تكرار كلما you'll find the topic of "repeating كلما " being discussed. In the end, it might come down to "descriptivism vs. prescriptivism" which is altogether another issue but relevant to our question here.

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Bishr View Post
    Hi All

    My preliminary findings have it that repeating كلما does happen quite often, but that it is a common mistake. If you conduct a google search for تكرار كلما you'll find the topic of "repeating كلما " being discussed. In the end, it might come down to "descriptivism vs. prescriptivism" which is altogether another issue but relevant to our question here.
    It would make sense if it was colloquial influence in writing to double كلما - I don't know what the classical grammarians have to say about it. If you use كلما in colloquial without repetition, and with the non-past verb, I believe it can mean "whenever" rather than "the more... the more...". كلما بتيجي لبيتي بتطلب مني مصاري : whenever you come to my house you ask me for money. Thus doubling كلما in MSA writing may be an attempt at avoiding this secondary meaning.

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Hi All

    Apparently, it's not just doubled in the context of "the more ...the more". I was thinking that it might a little like the English: "Everytime I tell you not to do it, everytime you insist on doing it", as if for emphasis. This is especially this case, I think, when the first clause is somewhat long in English.

    Moreover, I think that the comparative "more" is achieved through using an equivalent comparative in Arabic like أكثر or أطول , etc. depending on the context. The repetition of كلما could be, I think, due to it being repeated in English, making it a case of linguistic borrowing.

  10. #10
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Hello
    I must have used the construction with
    بقدر ما
    in the wrong context or in an improper way in my previous posting, but here are examples taken from the internet for you to comment on. In my opinion they express the same meaning as
    كلما

    وفضلا عن ذلك، فإن العمل يغدو بسيطا بقدر ما يزداد تقسيم العمل
    بقدر ما ازداد الزمن ازدادت السعادة،
    بقدر ما ازداد المجتمع تعقيداً، بقدر ما بات الناس يعتمدون أكثر فأكثر على...

    What do you think?

  11. #11
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by licinio View Post
    وفضلا عن ذلك، فإن العمل يغدو بسيطا بقدر ما يزداد تقسيم العمل
    بقدر ما ازداد الزمن ازدادت السعادة،
    بقدر ما ازداد المجتمع تعقيداً، بقدر ما بات الناس يعتمدون أكثر فأكثر على...
    You are right. Those sentences do indeed express the same meaning.

    However, your sentence was not constructed correctly, as you suspected.
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  12. #12
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by elroy View Post
    Perhaps my tendency to repeat it is a dialectal influence. In Palestinian Arabic, it must be repeated:

    كل ما كتروا الولاد كل ما قلت حرية الأبو والإم - Kul ma kitru liwlaad kul ma 2allat 7urriyyet il2abu wil2im.
    كل ما طولت القصة كل ما صارت تزهق أكتر - Kul ma Tiwlat il2uSSa kul ma Saarat itzahhe2 aktar.

    What about other dialects?
    Sorry for a belated reply.

    Yes, this is the same in the Egyptian dialect:
    كل ما كتر الولاد كل ما قلت حرية الأب والأم
    koll(e) ma keter el-welaad, koll(e) ma 2allet 7orreyyet el-abb wel2om
    كل ما طولت القصة كل ما كانت مملة
    koll(e) ma Tewlet el-qiSSa koll(e) ma kaanet momella

    The (e) is a slightly pronounced "liaison" between koll and the word following it.

    If we use one "koll" in the sentence it will mean "each time that", like:
    koll(e) mashoofak afteker elly 7aSal
    كل ما اشوفك افتكر اللي حصل
    Each time I see you I remember what happened

  13. #13
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Although بحسبما seems to be used mainly with the meaning of "according to what" as in
    بحسبما قال\أفاد\أذكر\ورد
    I have come across it with a correlative meaning similar to كلما
    ولكن بحسبما اذلّوهم هكذا نموا وامتدّوا

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by licinio View Post
    Although بحسبما seems to be used mainly with the meaning of "according to what" as in
    بحسبما قال\أفاد\أذكر\ورد
    I have come across it with a correlative meaning similar to كلما
    ولكن بحسبما اذلّوهم هكذا نموا وامتدّوا
    Yes, here it means "as much as they have..." or "to the degree that they have..."
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  15. #15
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by elroy View Post

    أصبحت الحكاية مملة بقدر ما كانت طويلا
    This would not have been the translation I'd expect, but when I saw it I thought it was acceptable. Any reason why you marked it as wrong? طويلا needs taa marbooTah

  16. #16
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by suma View Post
    Any reason why you marked it as wrong? طويلا needs taa marbooTah
    Apart from the gender of the adjective, the verbs are in the wrong tense.

    The translation of the sentence is: "The story became boring to the degree that it was long," or, more idiomatically, "The story got more and more boring as it got longer."

    The original sentence is a general statement about stories.
    Last edited by elroy; 24th July 2007 at 4:05 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Ah yes, you're right. I overlooked that part: aSba7at.

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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Bishr View Post
    [..] I was thinking that it might a little like the English: "Everytime I tell you not to do it, everytime you insist on doing it", as if for emphasis.

    [...]
    The repetition of كلما could be, I think, due to it being repeated in English, making it a case of linguistic borrowing.
    I have my doubts about this theory because in English, I don't think it is natural or common to repeat "every time" as in your sentence, which sounds very odd to me.
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  19. #19
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    But this sounds more natural, wouldn't you agree?:

    "The more I tell you not to do it, the more you insist on doing it." So I think that repitition like that is allowed in English but just depents which word you use.

  20. #20
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    Re: The longer a story, the more tiresome.

    Good point. But I'm still not sure whether that has had an influence on the construction in Arabic.
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