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Thread: Northern Ireland = British?

  1. #61
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    My final two cents:
    I've known Northern Irish Protestants, convinced Unionists, who in Britain have no problem about calling themselves Irish without even specifying Northern, but when travelling outside the "British Isles" call themselves British, as it's the passport that counts.
    I think the only rule is that each population group should be called as it wants to be called and not as others want to call it.

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    I think the only rule is that each population group should be called as it wants to be called and not as others want to call it.
    This is a universal truth that is the key to conflict resolution... people are what they think they are, no matter what way others wish to describe them. Once everyone else recognises and respects each other's personal perception of themselves, people tend to get along.

    Northern Ireland has many people who feel British but who are not English, Welsh or Scottish. They can be nothing else but Irish, and that for them is not incompatible with being British.
    Northern Ireland also has many people who simply feel Irish and who feel no connection to Britishness. So long as they each respect the other's right to feel as they do about themselves, there is no real reason for conflict - so long as neither imposes upon the freedoms of the other.
    Last edited by elirlandes; 19th May 2010 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by elirlandes View Post
    This is a universal truth that is the key to conflict resolution... people are what they think they are, no matter what way others wish to describe them. Once everyone else recognises and respects each other's personal perception of themselves, people tend to get along.
    I only said:
    I think the only rule is that each population group should be called as it wants to be called and not as others want to call it.
    It's a good rule if we want to be respectful but that's far from saying it's the solution to all ills (or even some). Usually a people's insistence on how it wants to be called is a symptom of historical resentment about oppression and exploitation. If Ireland had entered into a voluntary union with Britain on an equal basis, people would have far fewer problems about how they wanted to be called.

  4. #64
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    Usually a people's insistence on how it wants to be called is a symptom of historical resentment about oppression and exploitation. If Ireland had entered into a voluntary union with Britain on an equal basis, people would have far fewer problems about how they wanted to be called.

    This is true, but for various reasons.

    Obviously, if someone dislikes X for whatever reason, that person will dislike being associated with X. This is true of many armchair republicans and young people who "hate the English" because of some vague memories of history class when someone said something about British colonisers. They will have a negative attitude to everything British that they don't like, and mysteriously forget about the British Premier League in Soccer and Coronation Street.

    Obviously, if Ireland had been happy to be in the UK it wouldn't have separated and there most likely wouldn't be any practical problems with people conflating the two terms, because British -as for the British in the north -would simply be an archaic term that isn't quite correct but to which nobody would give a second thought..

    But it did regain independence and there are objective, non-emotionally driven problems for us when people conflate the two. And many Irish people will insist they aren't British with all the earnest passion of a woman insisting she isn't grumpy just because she's menstruating.
    Ah go on, go on, go on, go on, go on,....go on!

  5. #65
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    This is an old chestnut.
    Cardinal John Henry Newman's essay “The Isles of the North” was published back in 1852. I quite like his idea though, that'd make us all "Northerners" eh.
    John Henry Newman : "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."

  6. #66
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro y La Torre View Post
    You can also be from N.I. and be nothing other than Irish - anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport and if you hold an Irish passport alone, as many in Northern Ireland do, I certainly wouldn't class you as British.
    Are those people eligible to vote for the NI assembly and if so under which conditions?

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Are those people eligible to vote for the NI assembly and if so under which conditions?
    Anybody from Northern Ireland, whether they consider themselves Irish or British, can vote for the NI assembly, as well as for a representative (MP) in the national parliament of the United Kingdom in Westminster (London).

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by elirlandes View Post
    Anybody from Northern Ireland, whether they consider themselves Irish or British, can vote for the NI assembly, as well as for a representative (MP) in the national parliament of the United Kingdom in Westminster (London).
    Well, I wasn't concerned about whether person considers himself Irish or British but under which condition a person is considered a UK citizen by Britain. Is every Irish citizen with residence in NI considered an British citizen and hence entitled to vote?

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Well, I wasn't concerned about whether person considers himself Irish or British but under which condition a person is considered a UK citizen by Britain. Is every Irish citizen with residence in NI considered an British citizen and hence entitled to vote?
    You are confusing two things here: entitlement to vote, and citizenship.

    The website of the Northern Ireland Electoral Office says that to be registered as entitled to vote in a UK election you need to meet the following criteria:
    Each person should register at the address where he or she is resident if they:

    • Are a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen, or a citizen of a Member State of the European Union.
    • Will turn 17 before publication of the next December Register.
    • Have been resident in Northern Ireland for the past three months.
    The significant point being that you do not need to be a UK citizen in order to vote in a UK election.
    It takes two to tangle.

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Yes, that was my original question. Thank you. Elirlandes also mentioned Westminster. There I would assume you needed UK citizenship to vote. Right?

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Yes, that was my original question. Thank you. Elirlandes also mentioned Westminster. There I would assume you needed UK citizenship to vote. Right?
    Indeed this is not case - There is a reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Ireland in that citizens of each country who are resident in the other are able to vote for the national parliament of the country in which they are resident.

    As such, an Irish citizen from Dublin, living in London has the right to vote for the national parliament of the UK. Similarly, a UK citizen, living in Dublin, has the right to vote in elections for the Dáil.

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Yes, that was my original question. Thank you. Elirlandes also mentioned Westminster. There I would assume you needed UK citizenship to vote. Right?
    No, not quite. Here is a more precise statement from the UK Electoral Commission.

    Who can register to vote?

    • Anyone aged 16 or over (but you cannot vote until you are 18).
    • British or qualifying Commonwealth citizens. This means Commonwealth citizens who have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave.
    • Citizens of the Republic of Ireland or other European Union (EU) member states.

    Who can vote?

    • British, Irish and qualifying citizens of Commonwealth countries (including Cyprus and Malta) can vote at all elections.
    • Citizens of other EU member states resident in the UK can vote in local government elections but cannot vote in UK Parliamentary elections.
    • Those resident in Scotland or Wales may also vote in Scottish Parliamentary or National Assembly for Wales elections.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...r-registration
    It takes two to tangle.

  13. #73
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by panjandrum View Post
    Northern Ireland citizens/subjects are British.
    They are entitled to carry British passports.
    They live in the British Isles.

    Northern Ireland citizens/subjects are Irish.
    They are entitled to carry Irish passports.
    They live in Ireland.
    Well said!

  14. #74
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by panjandrum View Post
    Northern Ireland citizens/subjects are British.
    They are entitled to carry British passports.
    They live in the British Isles.

    Northern Ireland citizens/subjects are Irish.
    They are entitled to carry Irish passports.
    They live in Ireland.
    Do Northern Ireland citizens have the option of carrying both a British and an Irish passport (like in the case of dual citizenship) or do they have to pick one of the two?
    If the latter, are they allowed to change their mind and request the other passport at any moment in time?
    Last edited by Paulfromitaly; 1st September 2010 at 4:14 PM.

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    Do Northern Ireland citizens have the option of carrying both a the British and an Irish passport (like in the case of dual citizenship) or do they have to pick one of the two?
    If the latter, are they allowed to change their mind and request the other passport at any moment in time?
    People from NI are entitled to an Irish and a British passport at all times. They can choose to hold one on its own, or both at the same time.

  16. #76
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    It isn't only residents of Northern Ireland who are entitled to an Irish passport. Anybody with at least one grandparent born anywhere on the island of Ireland can be a citizen of the Republic. My mother's parents were both born in Northern Ireland in th 19th century. I am therefore entitled to Irish citizenship even though my mother and I were both born and bred in England and I have visited the Republic only briefly.
    Amo ergo Sum. My words speak for themselves. Between the lines you will find nothing but blank spaces.

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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    If you can play soccer, we'll still claim you Kevin.

  18. #78
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    ...I think the only rule is that each population group should be called as it wants to be called and not as others want to call it.
    Hi Einstein,
    While I agree with the idea, you'd be surprised how many population groups on this planet are known by what others call them, rather that by their own chosen name.
    To stick to an example related to this thread : Etymology of the word British.
    The original (Welsh) name Pritani or Priteni literally meant "painted people, in reference to the wode used by these Picts. After the Roman conquest 43 AD this name was applied to all inhabitants of the larger Island.
    So that today we refer to Anglo Saxon decendants as Britons or British. Yet they did not choose the name of their race.

    A further example, is that the Welsh were themselves "baptised" so by the Anglo Saxons, the word means stranger/foreigner in Old English and in present-day Alsacian.
    John Henry Newman : "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."

  19. #79
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    A further example, is that the Welsh were themselves "baptised" so by the Anglo Saxons, the word means stranger/foreigner in Old English and in present-day Alsacian.
    "Welsh" is in old Common-Germanic name for all sorts of Celts and sometimes for Latin-speakers. That is why The French speaking Belgians are called "Wallons", the French-speaking Swiss "Welschschweizer" and the old German name for "Genua" is "Welschbern".

  20. #80
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    Re: Northern Ireland = British?

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    "Welsh" is in old Common-Germanic name for all sorts of Celts and sometimes for Latin-speakers. That is why The French speaking Belgians are called "Wallons", the French-speaking Swiss "Welschschweizer" and the old German name for "Genua" is "Welschbern".
    Hello berndf,
    I agree,
    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    The communes of Lapouterie/Val d'Orbey here in Alsace are known locally as "Pays Welsch", that is "Foreigner country". So called, because of a French speaking community who were installed there from the 16 century onwards. In German, the commune was originally called "Schnierlach" a reference to the alder trees growing there.
    My point is that it's perhaps unusal for populations to chose their own appellation.
    Hence my example of the people of Wales (who call themselves Cymry since 633 ad) are known in English as the Welsh, from the (Old English/) German word "Welsch" meaning "stranger" or "foreigner".
    John Henry Newman : "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."

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