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Thread: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

  1. #61
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nipnip View Post
    The problem is when getting out. You came in to Russia with your Russian passport, while in Russia it was stolen and you have to leave the country. Next day Mr Immigration examines the American passport you are now using and notices there are no entry stamps. Investigation starts, you lose your flight and maybe get fined (I don't know if any legal charges actually apply).

    Same thing trying to enter the US on a Russian passport. How long do you want to be with Mr Immigration trying to explain that you ARE an American citizen but your passport was stolen while in Russia?
    What does stolen passports have to do with what we are discussing? Having your documents stolen will result in bad things in any case, whatever the situation. And if my US passport is stolen in Russia, I would just go to my country's (US) consulate and, like any other US citizen whose passport gets stolen, and get appropriate papers for the situation - why would I try entering US on my Russian passport?

    I have traveled with both Russian and American passports to Russia (leaving US and entering Russia on the Russian passport, then leaving Russia and entering the US on the US passport), I had no problems whatsoever.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by rusita preciosa View Post
    What does stolen passports have to do with what we are discussing? Having your documents stolen will result in bad things in any case, whatever the situation. And if my US passport is stolen in Russia, I would just go to my country's (US) consulate and, like any other US citizen whose passport gets stolen, and get appropriate papers for the situation - why would I try entering US on my Russian passport?

    I have traveled with both Russian and American passports to Russia (leaving US and entering Russia on the Russian passport, then leaving Russia and entering the US on the US passport), I had no problems whatsoever.
    It has everything to do we what you guys are discussing, it is a potential way for authorities to discover that you are doing what they asked you not to do in order to grant you citizenship.
    Last edited by Nipnip; 27th February 2013 at 9:07 PM.
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  3. #63
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    How can someone name here a human right like 'freedom to move' as an act of treason?
    The 21st ideologies like, globalisation and the happy EU, reinforce and encourage liberal commerce, consequently, massive population movement from one country to another.
    Last edited by irinet; 13th November 2013 at 3:10 AM.
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  4. #64
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    That's a very idealistic view, irinet. "Freedom to move" is not a universally recognized right, even in the "happy EU". As an American citizen, I cannot simply pick up and move to France unless I want to be an illegal alien. In order to live there permanently I have to go through quite a rigorous process and may be turned down if a) I have insufficient funds to support myself indefinitely or b) do not have a job in the country, which requires c) a work visa, which requires d) a job in the country. It's the same Catch-22 that is found in many countries, including my own.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by irinet View Post
    How can someone name here a human right like 'freedom to move' as an act of treason?
    But why leaving one's country is a "treason", after all? If someone wants to live a different life than his country suggests to him, then what's the good for anyone in keeping him? You can't be sweet by force.
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesM View Post
    "Freedom to move" is not a universally recognized right, even in the "happy EU".
    The world went worse after 1914 in many respects, including this one. There were times when people didn't think that countries must be like military camps.

  6. #66
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by learnerr View Post
    But why leaving one's country is a "treason", after all? If someone wants to live a different life than his country suggests to him, then what's the good for anyone in keeping him? You can't be sweet by force.
    I think you misunderstood. There is no problem with leaving the U.S. No one keeps an American in the U.S. (Well, unless he's on a "no-fly" list or is a felon freeing the country. I suppose there are exceptions.) The problem is immigrating somewhere else. For example, have you ever looked at the requirements for naturalization in Switzerland?

    https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...uergerung.html
    Time and effort is needed to become Swiss. On top of the 12-year residency requirement, the application process can take up to three years, and during this time the applicant cannot move to another community.
    Until recently, a foreigner could not even buy property in Switzerland.

    The world went worse after 1914 in many respects, including this one. There were times when people didn't think that countries must be like military camps.
    I think this has been around since long before 1914.
    Last edited by JamesM; 13th November 2013 at 6:30 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesM View Post
    I think you misunderstood. There is no problem with leaving the U.S.
    James, I was addressing irinet, and I was talking about moral issues rather than legal issues, as she was.
    I think this has been around since long before 1914.
    They say, in Europe most of states didn't require passport for travel in the second half of the 19 century, i.e. in times when one might think, public enlightenment is gradually taking over. Illusion, possibly, but who knows what would happen if people were wiser before the time of action...

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by learnerr View Post
    James, I was addressing irinet, and I was talking about moral issues rather than legal issues, as she was.
    Perhaps I missed it in the thread, but I don't see anything where people are declared treasonous for emigrating.

    They say, in Europe most of states didn't require passport for travel in the second half of the 19 century, i.e. in times when one might think, public enlightenment is gradually taking over. Illusion, possibly, but who knows what would happen if people were wiser before the time of action...[/QUOTE]

    I think I was taking a longer view. The time without passports was much shorter than the time with passports, and before that you could be risking your life to be a foreigner in another country. I don't think the likes of Ivan the Terrible took too kindly to strangers. It seems like romanticizing to imagine that there was a time when anyone could move freely anywhere. I don't think that such a time has ever existed.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesM View Post
    The time without passports was much shorter than the time with passports, and before that you could be risking your life to be a foreigner in another country.
    Right, but that time was culturally important. For one thing, it was the time when technical progress went far (take the same steam engines, for example), and someone might well think that this progress demonstrated the advantages of well-intended reason too evidently and mundanely for any major war to come.
    It seems like romanticizing to imagine that there was a time when anyone could move freely anywhere. I don't think that such a time has ever existed.
    I agree it most likely has not. But still, what is curious is that there were times freer than the modern times at least in certain respects. It tells that something wrong is going on.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    This is what I wanted to read here. It seems that things look better on paper than in real life. Absolute free movement never existed: by far the most important reason to move is not a happy, satisfying life, and this does not equal to the concept of freedom.
    Last edited by irinet; 13th November 2013 at 10:36 AM.
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesM View Post
    Perhaps I missed it in the thread, but I don't see anything where people are declared treasonous for emigrating.
    Right, I read her words in exactly the opposite way. So, in fact, I am in agreement with her.

  12. #72
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    There is little genuine emigration from the US. A very few wealthy citizens have renounced US citizenship to live in low-tax countries, since US citizens living abroad are still subject to many US taxes. Even fewer do it for political reasons - Edward Snowden would be an example. The first group tends to be regarded with derision; the second even more strongly.

    There are many, many US citizens living abroad as expats, but few people consider them emigrants. Emigrant has a permanent sense to it. A retiree from New York who has lived on a Mexican beach for ten years while maintaining a US passport is an expat, not an emigrant. Emigrants are almost always driven by either economic or political difficulty in their home country.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    To give you an idea of how small the number is, there were fewer than 1,800 Americans who renounced their citizenship in 2011, according this Wall Street Journal article:

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...10021186373802

    It's an interesting article because it highlights the co-founder of Facebook. He renounced his U.S. citizenship to move to Singapore, presumably for tax reasons.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesM View Post
    It's an interesting article because it highlights the co-founder of Facebook. He renounced his U.S. citizenship to move to Singapore, presumably for tax reasons.
    And he was pilloried in the press and public opinion for doing it. Considering the motivations for emigration from the US, it would be accurate to say that there's a strongly negative attitude in the US toward emigrants. Not against emigration per se, but the reasons people do it.

    (Considering US immigration policy, it's likely none of those emigrants will be able to return soon. Even is a person has a visa, or is from a visa-waiver country, Homeland Security officials at the borders and ports of entry have enormous discretion to deny an alien entry into the US.)

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Israel is probably one of the few countries where there is a clear negative attitude towards emigrants (unless they are particularly successful abroad ).
    Itzhak Rabin as he was on an official visit to the US even called them "Dropout Wimps" kicking up a fuss.
    Many of them suffer from a guilty conscience. To illustrate this point, I remember of a visit I made to Germany.
    As a guest in a reception, I was approached by an Israeli I had never seen before in my life (he knew I came from Israel).
    He told me : make no mistake, my bags are packed, as soon as I can I'll fly back to Israel.

  16. #76
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by rolmich View Post
    Israel is probably one of the few countries where there is a clear negative attitude towards emigrants (unless they are particularly successful abroad ).
    Itzhak Rabin as he was on an official visit to the US even called them "Dropout Wimps" kicking up a fuss.
    Many of them suffer from a guilty conscience. To illustrate this point, I remember of a visit I made to Germany.
    As a guest in a reception, I was approached by an Israeli I had never seen before in my life (he knew I came from Israel).
    He told me : make no mistake, my bags are packed, as soon as I can I'll fly back to Israel.
    I wonder if he ever did (and how many do eventually come back).

  17. #77
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by rolmich View Post
    Israel is probably one of the few countries where there is a clear negative attitude towards emigrants (unless they are particularly successful abroad ).
    Itzhak Rabin as he was on an official visit to the US even called them "Dropout Wimps" kicking up a fuss.
    Many of them suffer from a guilty conscience. To illustrate this point, I remember of a visit I made to Germany.
    As a guest in a reception, I was approached by an Israeli I had never seen before in my life (he knew I came from Israel).
    He told me : make no mistake, my bags are packed, as soon as I can I'll fly back to Israel.
    Tough luck. Not only so often do Isreali emigrants receive bad treatment in the country they've emigrated to, but also they're frowned upon by their own people. How silly is that?

  18. #78
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by dreamlike View Post
    Tough luck. Not only so often do Isreali emigrants receive bad treatment in the country they've emigrated to, but also they're frowned upon by their own people. How silly is that?
    I do not believe that Israeli emigrants are unwelcomed guests in their host countries in general.
    If an Israeli is polite and respectful of other people culture and habits if he is not rude or arrogant, I do not see any reason why he/she should be unwelcome.
    As for the way they are perceived by their own people, you should remember that Israel has fought for its survival since its creation in 1948 (without entering into the political field and denounce who started it all).
    Every citizen is supposed to share the national burden much more than for a citizen of a country at peace with its neighbours.

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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    Quote Originally Posted by rolmich View Post
    I do not believe that Israeli emigrants are unwelcomed guests in their host countries in general.
    That's not what I meant to say, and I'm sure that's not the case, too. There have been reported cases of antisemitism in every country of the world, though, often through no fault of Isreali people, but it holds water to say that 'Isreali emigrants' are regarded as 'unwelcomed guests' in some countries by some people. If it doesn't, then the whole antisemitism thing would be a hoax, which it is not, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by rolmich View Post
    As for the way they are perceived by their own people, you should remember that Israel has fought for its survival since its creation in 1948 (without entering into the political field and denounce who started it all).
    All right, so to your mind, this justifies such thinking?:

    there is a clear negative attitude towards emigrants (unless they are particularly successful abroad ).

    which could be more radically rephrased as:

    There isn't a clearly negative attitude towards Isreali emigrants provided they earn enough money/have enough scientific achievements abroad, and thus giving a good name to the whole nation.

    That seems just wrong to me, but I can see how it might be possible, because we've seen that in the past. (WWII and the division between 'rich' Jews and 'poor' Jews).
    Last edited by dreamlike; 14th December 2013 at 9:14 PM.

  20. #80
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    Re: What is the attitude towards emigrants in your country?

    I don't perceive there to be a negative attitude to Israeli immigrants in any of the countries I normally deal with, and it's very obvious to me there are negative feelings to some people in the US, France and Spain, for instance.
    Last edited by merquiades; 15th December 2013 at 7:10 PM. Reason: edit no longer needed
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