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Thread: FR: le plus + adjectif + X / le X le plus + adjectif - place du superlatif

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    FR: le plus + adjectif + X / le X le plus + adjectif - place du superlatif

    C'est le plus grand marché et le mieux connu de la Provence. Is that the correct placement of the adjectives […]? Thanks.

    Moderator note: Multiple threads have been merged to create this one.
    Last edited by Maître Capello; 1st January 2012 at 1:05 PM. Reason: note + 2nd question removed

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Hello,
    I would say ' c'est le marché le plus grand et le plus célèbre en Provence'
    Actually I wouldn't know how to explain!!!!
    or c'est le marché le + grand et le plus célèbre de la Provence!
    Anyway what you suggested is fine too,
    except for le mieux connu which sounds odd.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by doinel; 2nd August 2013 at 7:08 PM. Reason: Capital letters.

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    It's true that mieux connu sounds odd. Plus célèbre or plus réputé would be better.

    As you qualify marché with several adjectives, they should remain grouped in the sentence :
    C'est le marché le plus grand et le plus réputé de Provence
    or
    C'est le plus grand et le plus réputé des marchés de Provence.

    Et
    sounds mandatory to me, in such a sentence.
    Absence de contexte = Texte de sens abscons !

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    But the normal position for grand is before the noun and for célèbre it is after the noun. Shouldn't this be taken into consideration?

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Quote Originally Posted by iaatf View Post
    But the normal position for grand is before the noun and for célèbre it is after the noun. Shouldn't this be taken into consideration?
    Combined with a superlative, any adjective has to be set before its noun.

    Edit: so badly said that it's finally wrong, like said further.
    Last edited by tilt; 13th February 2008 at 1:10 AM.
    Absence de contexte = Texte de sens abscons !

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Not according to my French grammar book. Unfortunately, it has no examples of two superlatives being used.

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Quote Originally Posted by iaatf View Post
    Not according to my French grammar book. Unfortunately, it has no examples of two superlatives being used.
    What does you book say, exactly?
    It's true that what I just said is not that right. Combined with a superlative, an adjective that usually shows after the noun can be set before it (le plus célèbre marché is perfectly correct).
    So saying le plus grand et le plus célèbre marché de Provence is not a problem.
    Last edited by tilt; 13th February 2008 at 12:58 AM. Reason: typos
    Absence de contexte = Texte de sens abscons !

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    According to my book, some adjectives go before the noun while others go after the noun and there are some adjectives whose meaning changes depending on where you place them. My professor told us to remember BANGS (beauty, age, numbers, goodness, size) for which adjectives go before the noun.

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    According to my book, some adjectives go before the noun while others go after the noun and there are some adjectives whose meaning changes depending on where you place them. My professor told us to remember BANGS (beauty, age, numbers, goodness, size) for which adjectives go before the noun.
    That's correct, Iaatf, but this is when you just have the adjective: a pretty girl, an old man, the second person, a good child, a tall tree.

    Once you decide to use the superlative instead (the prettiest girl, the oldest man, the best child, the tallest tree), the syntax of the French superlative allows you to put any adjective before the noun, even if it's not in the BAGS list. It just so happens that the superlative would also allow you to put any adjective after the noun. So the BAGS list doesn't help very much for deciding whether to put the adjective before or after the noun if you have a superlative. There may still be a slight tendency to put BAGS superlatives in front of the noun and non-BAGS superlatives after the noun... but the overall sentence structure (ie., keeping superlative adjectives together) is more important.

    This explanation isn't very complete, but it might help you to understand. Scroll to part II for superlatives. I hope it helps.

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    Re: FR-Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Quote Originally Posted by iaatf View Post
    According to my book, some adjectives go before the noun while others go after the noun and there are some adjectives whose meaning changes depending on where you place them. My professor told us to remember BANGS (beauty, age, numbers, goodness, size) for which adjectives go before the noun.
    That's perfectly right, but because of the superlative, changing the usual place of an adjective is possible, like I explained in post #3.
    Absence de contexte = Texte de sens abscons !

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    Re: FR: Position of Superlative Adjectives

    I am a little confused. As far as the textbooks are concerned, when using the superlative, the adjectives which usually precede the noun (BANGS) should do so with the superlative also.

    grand -- Michel est le plus grand garçon de la classe.

    But the same textbooks also say that grand (and gros) is one of the exceptions because it changes meaning when placed before or after the noun.

    un grand homme a great man
    un homme grand a big man

    So, can I only say "Michel est le garçon le plus grand de la classe" because I mean to say that Michel is the tallest boy in the class?

    And un garçon grand instead of un grand garçon because of the meaning(tall/big)?

    Merci!

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    Re: FR: Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Grand usuallymeans great when reading just before its noun.
    Moreover, grand in the meaning of great is rarely used about a boy.
    Your phrases are likely to be understood as saying tall, then.

    That said, a phrase like le plus grand homme de France is definitely ambiguous, and context only would allow knowing exactly which meaning is intended.
    Absence de contexte = Texte de sens abscons !

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    superlatif

    Cette est l'explication sur mon livre des superlatifs:
    Pierre est le plus petit de la classe.
    Annette est la plus grande de la famille.
    Pierre et Nicole sont les intelligents du groupe.
    Michel est le plus jeune pilote de la compagnie aérienne.
    Si l'adjectif est un que normalement suit le substantif, le/la/les sont placés à la fois avant et aprés le substantif:
    le vin le plus cher
    les livres les plus intéressants
    Mais dans l'exercice qui suit je comprends cette phrase:
    ce restaurant est chic. > oui, c'est le restaurant le plus chic du monde.
    mais ici je ne comprends pas:
    cette librairie est grande. > oui, c'est la plus grande libraire du monde.
    cette cathédrale est belle. > oui, c'est la plus belle cathédrale du monde.
    cette bière est bonne. > oui, c'est la meilleure bière du monde.
    Merci beaucoup d'avance de votre aide!

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    Re: superlatif

    Girl from Rio, il faut regarder les différences syntatiques entre les exemples dans votre livre. Il y a trois types de phrases bien différents !

    1. Phrases déclaratives : la phrase commence avec le substantif, qui sert de sujet. L'adjectif qui décrit le sujet apparaît au millieu de la phrase, sans qu'il n'y ait d'autre substantif.
    Pierre est le plus petit de la classe.

    Pierre et Nicole sont les intelligents du groupe.

    2. Phrases avec un complément du sujet : le sujet est repris par un 2e substantif qui apparaît au millieu de la phrase, et l'adjectif décrit ce 2e substantif. Il faut donc distintuer entre :
    - les adjectifs qui suivent
    'Chez Jean' est le restaurant le plus chic du monde.
    - les adjectifs qui précèdent
    Michel est le plus jeune pilote de la compagnie aérienne.

    3. Phrase démonstratives : la phrase commence avec c'est. Le substantif apparaît avec l'adjectif qui le décrit au millieu de la phrase. Sur le plan grammatical, ces phrases sont comme celles de la 2e catégorie. Encore une fois, il faut distinguer entre :
    - les adjectifs qui suivent
    c'est le restaurant le plus chic du monde.
    - les adjectifs qui précèdent
    c'est la plus belle cathédrale du monde.
    Last edited by jann; 15th March 2009 at 11:38 PM.

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    Re: FR: Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Merci beaucoup de ton explication, donc il est seulement une question de style si je dis:
    c'est la plus belle cathédrale du monde ou
    c'est la cathédrale la plus belle du monde?

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    Re: FR: Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Une question de style ? Non.
    Une question d'accent tonique ? Oui.

    Nous parlons ici des phrases démonstratives du 3e groupe, celles avec "c'est + superlatif". Quand on a un adjectif qui suit habituellement, on a quand même tendance à le mettre après le substantif... comme on a tendance à mettre un adjectif qui précède habituellement devant. Voilà pourquoi vous ai donné
    3. Phrase démonstratives : Encore une fois, il faut distinguer entre :
    - les adjectifs qui suivent
    c'est le restaurant le plus chic du monde.
    - les adjectifs qui précèdent
    c'est la plus belle cathédrale du monde.
    Cela dit, on peut déplacer l'adjectif de sa position habituelle, pour changer l'emphase tonique dans la phrase. Ce n'est pas faux si vous dites "c'est la cathédrale la plus belle du monde." Ce déplacement est plus "facile" à faire lorsqu'on a un adjectif comme beau, qui précède habituellement.

    Pour votre cours de français, je vous conseille de vous tenir aux constructions dont on a fait la présentation dans votre livre de grammaire. Cela vous évitera des erreurs. Ne vous inquiétez pas pour les nuances de changement d'accent tonique avant d'avoir maîtrisé les constructions de base !

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    Re: FR: Position of Superlative Adjectives

    Getting back to célèbre, it's one of those adjectives that can be placed before or after the noun without an appreciable difference in meaning. So in the original example both grand and célèbre could precede the noun.

    With an adjective like important, however, it might not work. But there is a way around it.

    C'est le plus grand et le plus important des marchés de la Provence.

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    FR: la plus belle fille / la fille la plus belle

    Hi/Salut,
    is this sentence correct grammatically?

    "
    Pour moi, la plus belle fille du monde ne vaut pas une virgule mise à sa place"

    I know that this is one of the
    Gustave Flaubert's citations, but I think it must be:

    "Pour moi, la fille la plus belle du monde ne vaut pas une virgule mise à sa place"

    am I wrong?

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    Re: FR: la plus belle fille / la fille la plus belle

    Both sentences are indeed correct. (But I prefer the former. )

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    FR: le plus grand pays / le pays le plus grand - adjective placement

    Hello all,

    […]

    I was discussing recently with a friend who also speaks french the correct placement of "plus + un adjectif" en français.

    For example:
    Le plus grand pays au monde.
    La plus belle fille dans la classe.
    Les plus importants détails.

    I've always assumed that "plus + adjective" always went in front of the nouns they were modifying, but my friend and I were debating wether or not it shouldn't be as follows:

    "Le pays le plus grand au monde."
    "La fille la plus belle dans la classe."
    "Les détails les plus importants."

    Could someone perhaps confirm the placement of this *ahem* most important adverb and adjective combination? I feel like the first example is correct, but I'm also quite certain that I've seen the second versions written or spoken before as well.

    Any help would be much appreciated.
    Cheers.
    Last edited by Maître Capello; 19th January 2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Other thread in Vocab deleted. Please don't duplicate your threads even across different forums (rule 2).

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