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Thread: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

  1. #281
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    It was considered dialect of SC only by Yugoslav linguists because it was under Yugoslav occupation. The lack of cases is not the diference between it and Serbo-Croation, its only a small part of it.

  2. #282
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Gramatically speaking, Kajkavian is considerably closer to Slovenian than it is to standard BCS. The similarity between Slovenian and Kajkavian also applies to many lexical items, but not as much to phonology.

  3. #283
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Macedonia was never "occupied" by Yugoslavia, it was one of the six members of a Yugoslav (south slavic) federation. After, World War II, Macedonians decided that they are not Serbs or Bulgarians but a seperate ethnic group. Clearly, their language is similiar to both Bulgarian and Serbian.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriglavNationalPark View Post
    Gramatically speaking, Kajkavian is considerably closer to Slovenian than it is to standard BCS. The similarity between Slovenian and Kajkavian also applies to many lexical items, but not as much to phonology.
    I wonder what if Croatian was standardized in Kajkavian, and Serbian in Torlakian and Bosnian in Shtokavian? Mass education would have made these languages realitevly different but since they are all based on Shtokavian they are almost the same now!
    Last edited by sokol; 23rd January 2009 at 10:25 PM. Reason: posts merged

  4. #284
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    This is off-topic, Mišo.

    Moderator note:
    Thanks, trance0, for reminding Mišo. - I'd also like to remind all foreros: please continue discussions on other threads when the topic shifts (you may of course link to that other thread). I have moved the posts about standard vs. spoken language to the appropriate thread.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by sokol; 23rd January 2009 at 10:36 PM. Reason: moderator note

  5. #285
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by trance0 View Post
    You are overreacting when saying that he cannot understand a thing. A Shtokavian speaker can understand quite a bit if he wants!
    I agree there, but it would require prior knowledge of the characteristics of the Kajkavian dialect.
    Thing is, nowadays, only few people can really speak "hardcore" Kajkavian, so indeed a standard speaker could pick up the general meaning of a Kajkavian speaker, mainly because Kajkavian speakers tend to use more standard words. I've heard a Kajkavian speaker repeat the same sentence in standard Croatian and in pure Kajkavian, and the difference is quite remarkable.

  6. #286
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Sane Helle View Post
    Originally Posted by trance
    You are overreacting when saying that he cannot understand a thing. A Shtokavian speaker can understand quite a bit if he wants!
    I agree there, but it would require prior knowledge of the characteristics of the Kajkavian dialect.
    Thing is, nowadays, only few people can really speak "hardcore" Kajkavian, so indeed a standard speaker could pick up the general meaning of a Kajkavian speaker, mainly because Kajkavian speakers tend to use more standard words. I've heard a Kajkavian speaker repeat the same sentence in standard Croatian and in pure Kajkavian, and the difference is quite remarkable.
    You're both forgetting that Kajkavian isn't a single dialect, but rather a continuum of numerous and very different local dialects. Some Kajkavian dialects are easily understandable to Shtokavian speakers, but others can be extremely hard to understand. For example, I don't think any Shtokavian speaker would have too much trouble understanding the Kajkavian dialects spoken around Karlovac. On the other hand, the Međimurje dialects are probably the hardest; someone from that region speaking the pure authentic local dialect would be almost completely incomprehensible to Shtokavian speakers. I've heard several real-life stories confirming this. One was about a doctor who came to Međimurje from Bosnia and initially had major difficulties communicating with his elderly patients there. Another one was from a relative of mine who shared a hospital room with an old lady from Međimurje, whose speech was also almost incomprehensible to her.

    Nowadays, however, nearly all Shtokavian speakers have had at least some minimal exposure to Kajkavian dialects, and more importantly, neraly all Kajkavians have learned the standard Shtokavian Croatian in school and from the media, so there are no practical barriers to communication between all except very old and uneducated people. However, Kajkavians will still sometimes speak relatively pure local dialect among themselves, and this can be very hard to follow for outsiders.

  7. #287
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Diaspora View Post
    I wonder what if Croatian was standardized in Kajkavian, and Serbian in Torlakian and Bosnian in Shtokavian? Mass education would have made these languages realitevly different but since they are all based on Shtokavian they are almost the same now!
    It would be interesting to speculate about the linguistic arguments that nationalists would be throwing at each other in this situation. It would be a cool way to demonstrate the absurdity of the present nationalist linguistic theories and language policies among South Slavs, since under different political circumstances, such a radically different situation could easily have developed out of the same state of affairs that existed 150-200 years ago.

  8. #288
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    I can say I could understand fairly well BCS even before starting to study it, simply because Slovene has many words that are now literary, archaic or dialectal but that are considered standard in Croatian, Serbian or Bosnian.

    čitati, plakati, vežbati, baš, li, mrkev, bodem (instead of bom), glumač, brod, selo, ljut, deva, dete, briga, rodbina, inozemstvo, inostranstvo, ako, duri/dveri, truden (tired as in literary croatian), jako, tožen, bljuvati, brojiti, priroda, dinja, svirati, mršav, glad, glupost and many more
    Last edited by jadeite_85; 7th December 2009 at 11:16 PM.

  9. #289
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by jadeite_85 View Post
    I can say I could understand fairly well BCS even before starting to study it, simply because Slovene has many words that are now literary, archaic or dialectal but that are considered standard in Croatian, Serbian or Bosnian.

    čitati, plakati, vežbati, baš, li, mrkev, bodem (instead of bom), glumač, brod, selo, ljut, deva, dete, briga, rodbina, inozemstvo, inostranstvo, ako, duri/dveri, truden (tired as in literary croatian), jako, tožen, bljuvati, brojiti, priroda, dinja, svirati, mršav, glad, glupost and many more
    I agree with you as far as written Slovene and BCS are concerned - I understand written Slovene quite well being a non-native speaker of BCS. But I am not sure how it is with the respective spoken languages - a Slovenian forero said that Slovenian phonology is quite different from the one of BCS and even words that are spelt identically in Slovene and BCS are often pronounced quite differently in the respective languages and may not be understood. I have almost no experience with spoken Slovene and cannot confirm this.
    Last edited by Orlin; 8th December 2009 at 10:13 AM.

  10. #290
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlin View Post
    I agree with you as far as written Slovene and BCS are concerned - I understand written Slovene quite well being a non-native speaker of BCS. But I am not sure how it is with the respective spoken languages - a Slovenian forero said that Slovenian phonology is quite different from the one of BCS and even words that are spelt identically in Slovene and BCS are often pronounced quite differently in the respective languages and may not be understood. I have almost no experience with spoken Slovene and cannot confirm this.
    If you're interested, I posted an audio link to a Slovenian radio program in this thread earlier this year:

    Quote Originally Posted by TriglavNationalPark View Post
    On a related matter, we've discussed other Slavic speakers' comprehension of Slovenian in this and other threads, so I decided to post an audio sample of standard Slovenian in the form of a radio discussion about language that was recently aired on Radio Slovenija:

    http://www.rtvslo.si/play/posnetek-brez-naslova/ava2.22850530/

    I know that most people don't encounter spoken Slovenian on a regular basis, so I'm curious about various Slavic speakers' impressions.

    NOTE: Thank you to Sokol for granting me permission to post this (official) link!

  11. #291
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    AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlin View Post
    I agree with you as far as written Slovene and BCS are concerned - I understand written Slovene quite well being a non-native speaker of BCS. But I am not sure how it is with the respective spoken languages - a Slovenian forero said that Slovenian phonology is quite different from the one of BCS and even words that are spelt identically in Slovene and BCS are often pronounced quite differently in the respective languages and may not be understood. I have almost no experience with spoken Slovene and cannot confirm this.
    I have heard this radio right now and as a native speaker of BCS I understood about 95% exept words like "oziroma" and accent is littel moved to the back of the word unlike in BCS but its comletily understandable.
    I just can say that I understand it more then Czech or Slovak, or any other language beside perhaps Macedonian and than Bulgarian. I mean, I dont know how other BCS spaekers see this, but for me is standard Slovenian very very understandable.

  12. #292
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    Re: AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by WannaBeMe View Post
    I have heard this radio right now and as a native speaker of BCS I understood about 95% exept words like "oziroma" and accent is littel moved to the back of the word unlike in BCS but its comletily understandable.
    I just can say that I understand it more then Czech or Slovak, or any other language beside perhaps Macedonian and than Bulgarian. I mean, I dont know how other BCS spaekers see this, but for me is standard Slovenian very very understandable.
    Slovenian oziroma = BCS odnosno

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    AW: Re: AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by TriglavNationalPark View Post
    Slovenian oziroma = BCS odnosno
    I am going to remember it. Thank you.

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    Re: AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by WannaBeMe View Post
    I have heard this radio right now and as a native speaker of BCS I understood about 95% exept words like "oziroma" and accent is littel moved to the back of the word unlike in BCS but its comletily understandable.
    I just can say that I understand it more then Czech or Slovak, or any other language beside perhaps Macedonian and than Bulgarian. I mean, I dont know how other BCS spaekers see this, but for me is standard Slovenian very very understandable.
    Something is very important - the mutual intelligibility between any 2 languages is higher if you are a native speaker of one of them than if it is a foreign language to you. This is maybe because a foreigner may not know the regional, archaic or other words that significantly help understanding the other language. This is maybe the most important reason why I probably understand Slovenian worse than you.

  15. #295
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    AW: Re: AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlin View Post
    Something is very important - the mutual intelligibility between any 2 languages is higher if you are a native speaker of one of them than if it is a foreign language to you. This is maybe because a foreigner may not know the regional, archaic or other words that significantly help understanding the other language. This is maybe the most important reason why I probably understand Slovenian worse than you.
    Yes its true. Besides I am from Krajina and im familiar with Croatian accent and Slovenian has more croatian-like accent unlike East-Serbian which has bulgarian-like accent. And I am in the middle, thus I am familiar with both. So thats why I can understand Slovenian even better than a BSC speaker from some parts of Serbia.

  16. #296
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Hi!

    What languages are closest to Russian? Belorussian and Ukrainian?

    1) Belorussian
    2) Ukrainian
    3) Bulgarian ? (grammar is very different, though, but many similar words, no?)

  17. #297
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Icetrance View Post
    Hi!

    What languages are closest to Russian? Belorussian and Ukrainian?

    1) Belorussian
    2) Ukrainian
    3) Bulgarian ? (grammar is very different, though, but many similar words, no?)
    The core vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation were very similar originally, between Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian. Russian has borrowed a lot of Bulgarian words and roots, whereas Ukrainian and Belarusian was heavily influenced by Polish. Now Ukrainian and Belarusian remind Polish a lot more but words are pronounced more similarly to Russian.

    A simple example of the influences: textbook - podręcznik (pl) - падручнік (be) - підручник (uk) vs учебник (ru and bg)

    Ukrainian and Belarusian have many dialects and until recently the standard Ukrainian was considered that of Poltava. Well, Poltava is very russified, so the standard may have become Lviv. The trend is, many Russian words (or words similar to Russian) are avoided and Polish are favoured in Ukrainian.
    Анатолий أناتولي 阿纳托利 アナトーリー 아나톨리 अनातोली อานาโตลี آناتولی

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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Thank you very much, Anatoli!

  19. #299
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    A simple example of the influences: textbook - podręcznik (pl) - падручнік (be) - підручник (uk) vs учебник (ru and bg)
    I understand учебник much better than podręcznik, учебник would be "učebník" in Czech. The calque from Polish "područník" is not clear.

    (textbook is "učebnice" in Czech)

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    AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Mutual intelligibility

    Quote Originally Posted by bibax View Post
    I understand учебник much better than podręcznik, учебник would be "učebník" in Czech. The calque from Polish "područník" is not clear.

    (textbook is "učebnice" in Czech)
    In serbian it would be уџбеник (<---учьбеник) or in some cases читанка.

    And područnik I would understand as something you care under arm.

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