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ściąć

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by stelingo, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. stelingo Senior Member

    English
    I cannot find a table showing me how to conjugate ściąć in the future tense, either online or in my dictionaries. Is the future not used with this verb?
     
  2. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    It is:
    ja zetnę
    ty zetniesz
    on/ona/ono zetnie
    my zetniemy
    wy zetniecie
    oni/one zetną

    EDIT: You can try this dictionary: http://polish.slavic.pitt.edu/polish/. I've just found the whole conjugation of 'ściąć' in it.
     
  3. stelingo Senior Member

    English
    Thanks a lot. It certainly looks nothing like the infinitive. I did a search on the dictionary in your link. It found 4 matches for the verb, but nothing seems to happen when I click on the 4 links.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  4. DearPrudence

    DearPrudence Dépêche Mod

    IdF
    French (lower Normandy)
    Cześć, Stelingo :)

    Click on 'View inflection Tables' of 4. ściąć. And then, click again on 'pf.: ściąć' :)
     
  5. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    For what it's worth, if you know how to conjugate the root verb 'ciąć' in the present tense, you know the future tense of its derivative 'niedokonany' forms:
    ciąć (present tense) ściąć (future tense) przeciąć (future tense)
    ja tnę zetnę przetnę
    ty tniesz zetniesz przetniesz
    on/ona/ono tnie zetnie przetnie
    my tniemy zetniemy przetniemy
    wy tniecie zetniecie przetniecie
    oni/one tną zetną przetną


    The thing is that, in order to make the pronunciation of 'ściąć' in the future tense easier, the 'ś' prefix changes to 'ze' in front of certain consonant clusters, 'tn' being one of them. Here are some rules on that:
    z- przedrostek występujący przed spółgłoskami dźwięcznymi oraz przed s, sz, ś, h, np. zbaranieć, zdrzemnąć się, zginąć, zniknąć, zrąbać, związać, zsunąć, zszarzeć, zsinieć, zharmonizować
    [...]
    ze- rozszerzony wariant przedrostka przed trudnymi do wymówienia grupami spółgłosek, np. zebrać, zedrzeć, zemdleć, zemleć, zemścić się, zerwać, zeskoczyć, zetrzeć.

    s- przedrostek tworzący czasowniki dokonane od niedokonanych, np. skreślić, skuć; pisany jako s- przed literami odpowiadającymi spółgłoskom bezdźwięcznym, oprócz s, sz, ś, ć;

    ś- postać fonetyczna i graficzna przedrostka s- przed spółgłoską ć, np. ściąć, ściągnąć, ściemnieć, ścierać, ścierpieć, ścierpnąć, ścinać, ściskać, ściszyć.
    Source: Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA
     
  6. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    To be more precise: z(e)* is the original form: z(e)ciąć -> ś-ciąć. There occurs an assimilation of z into ś before palatal consonant in ciąć in the infinitive. The finite (personal) forms have preserved the original z sound.

    *"e" is inserted between "z" and following consonant clusters to make it easier to pronounce.
     
  7. stelingo Senior Member

    English
    Thanks for your help guys.
     
  8. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Sorry, but I've got some doubts about your explanation.

    'z' is used in front of voiced consonants and s, sz, ś, h (zdrapać, zwierać, zbadać, etc.).
    'ze' differs in that it occurs in front of difficult-to-pronounce consonant clusters (zeskrobać, zedrzeć, zewrzeć, etc.). These may also include voiceless consonants in the front (zetnę, zetrzeć, zepchnąć, zechcieć, etc.).

    's' is used in front of voiceless consonants (skreślić). 'c' being voiceless in Polish normally allows for 's' ('scałować', 'scalić', etc.); however, 's' becomes 'ś' in front of 'ć', in pronunciation, (ściąć, ściskać, ścierpieć, etc.).

    So how come 'z(e)* is the original form: z(e)ciąć -> ś-ciąć'?
     
  9. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Why not? "Z" is the basic form of the preposition "with". It assimilates to following voiceless consonants becoming "s" and to palatals becoming "ś" or "ź".
    The asimilation occurs not only in verbs written together with the preposition , but also between separate words ("z tobą" is actually pronounced "stobą").
     
  10. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I see what you mean. It might be the case with the preposition 'z', but is it with the prefix? The semantic value of the preposition 'z' is different than that of the prefix marking the 'niedokonany' verb forms. Although it may be temtping to analyse them as one, I'm not sure, really, we can do it. Roughly, the spelling of the prefix:
    'z'-->voiced
    's'-->voiceless
    Are there any examples where 'z' would be placed in front of an voiceless consonant in a 'niedokonany' verb?

    The spelling of the preposition varies however:
    'spośród' (believe it or not, but I've recently seen 'z pośród' in an add for a job related to linguistics)
    but
    'z powrotem'
    They are both pronounced as 's'. I'm wondering if there is any rule to the spelling of the preposition 'z' (perhaps, there is just this that if it's spelled with 'z', the two are separate words, but how to know that?).
     
  11. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    The Common Slavic word for "with" was most probably "s" (probably cognate with Latin "cum" and Greek "συν"), but in Polish turned into "z" before the XIV century.
    There is a possibility that the voicing of isolated "s" developed paralelly with formation of "phrasal verbs" with the prefix "s", but in the the modern Polish language this distinction is only of historical interest, as the language functions exactly in the same way as if "z" was the origin of the prefix.
     
  12. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    The Protoslavic word for 'with' was sъn, it's for sure. The final n was eventually dropped, only in some cases it is still preserved, e.g. in Czech: *sъn jimi (with them) > s nimi, not s jimi; *sъnjesti > snísti (to eat up), snědl, not sjísti, sjedl.

    Sъn- is really a cognate with cum-/con-/syn-, however there are other Proto-IE/Protoslavic prepositions (prefixes) that also led to the simple s or z in (some) modern Slavic languages. They are cognate with Greek kata- or ek-.

    The problem with these prepositions/prefixes is that they are pronounced either voiced [z] or voiceless according to the following consonant (regressive assimilation of voiceness). In Czech we have strict orthographic rules for writing s/z (based on etymology), regardless of pronunciation - a real nightmare for the school children as the pronunciation cannot be a clue.

    BTW, ściąć is stíti (setnu, setneš, ...; sťal, sťala, ...) in Czech, always pronounced with as the palatal consonant ť is voiceless.
     
  13. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish


    The Protoslavic sъn is to be found as "są" in the Polish word "siad" (from sъnsiad?).

    It's a riddle why Greek, a kentum language, has "συν", while Latin has "cum".
     

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