Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή....

Discussion in 'Ελληνικά (Greek)' started by panettonea, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    Two of the following sentences are from the Babiniotis grammar--the third is not, so it may not even be valid. (Can you guess which one? :)) Both parts in these sentences are supposed to be counterfactual.

    Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμένει η Άννα.
    Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.
    Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.

    Which (if any) of these sentences would be the most common in Greek? And do the sentences really express that much difference in meaning? It's pretty much impossible to translate the first sentence literally into English, because in English there is no way to use the present perfect in a counterfactual if-clause--you have to use either the past or the past perfect.
     
  2. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    All three sentences have something wrong. First, it is έχω/είχα επιμείνει (not έχω/είχα *επιμένει).

    Here's my translation of the 3 sentences:
    1. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna has not insisted.
    2. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.
    3. Eleni would have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.


    Another alternative: Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  3. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    OK, I just copied and pasted from the "unofficial" translation. Maybe that's why it's unofficial. :)

    Thanks. Why do you feel that sentence 1 is incorrect in Greek? It's directly from Babiniotis, so apparently he and Clairis consider it to be correct. Actually, I don't have the printed book, but I think it's unlikely that the guy translating it messed up the tenses of the verbs too. Or at least I hope not. :D

    The guy's translation was: Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted.

    So, you're saying that his translation is wrong in terms of both "on stage" and the translated tenses? Your translation actually makes more sense to me. I don't know the background of the guy who translated it--whether he's a native speaker or not. But I'd still like to know why you consider it incorrect but Babs doesn't. (Incidentally, the second part of his translation, if Anna would not have insisted, is not grammatical English.)

    That sentence was my own tentative creation, but I see that it's obviously not valid. It's fun to test the waters, though. :)

    That's exactly how we'd say it in English. (Actually, we'd normally say would never have appeared, but my point is that we would use the exact same tenses.)

    That's actually another sentence straight from Babs, but I didn't include it here because I didn't have any questions about it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  4. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    Nothing wrong with the grammar, it just sounds strange to me and unidiomatic.

    Do you think that "Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates as "Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted"? I don't. Maybe "on stage" is better than "on the scene", though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  5. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    Thanks. Do you have a printed copy of the Babs grammar? Or surely someone who reads this board does? This sentence would be under the section titled ΤΡΟΠΙΚΟΤΗΤΑ.

    I'm probably not the right person to ask. ;)

    The translator could have made some other errors as well, so that's why it would be helpful if someone has the "real" book.
     
  6. ireney

    ireney Modistra

    U.S.A.
    Greek Greece
    "Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates into "Helen will never have appeared on stage, if Anna hasn't insisted" and makes as much senses in English as it does in Greek.

    I found the grammar online and the only sentence I could see with Helen doing anything artistic is: Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα. Where are the others?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  7. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US


    Which means not much at all. :)



    Here's the link to the "unofficial" translation. The following paragraph appears under the heading "The particle θα/83.":

    http://web.archive.org/web/20071225051217/http://www.geocities.com/klairbab/modality.html

    The particle θα, just like ας, is not used to introduce complement clauses. Contrary to the other two particles (να and ας), it does accept negation, which always appears before the particle:

    Ο Μάριος δεν θα γιορτάσει τα γενέθλιά του.
    Marios will not celebrate his birthday. [Future Perfective]
    Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna did not insist. [Condition]
    (Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμένει η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted. [Condition])
    Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna had not insisted. [Condition])

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That paragraph effectively ends section 83., and is followed by "I. Possibility - Probability/84." So, how much of the paragraph above actually comes from the original? Are you allowed to post a link here to the original?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  8. ireney

    ireney Modistra

    U.S.A.
    Greek Greece
    I'm afraid I can't but look at your PMs :)
    Such examples are not included in the book as I saw it in two places on line.
     
  9. Acestor

    Acestor Senior Member

    Athens
    Greek
    The Clairis-Babiniotis grammar contains only the two sentences:

    Ο Μάριος δεν θα γιορτάσει τα γενέθλιά του.
    Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα.


    The American chap working on its translation tried to give another version of the Greek conditional, one similar to the English third conditional, using "είχα":
    Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα. (The extra comma is his own addition. And it should be "είχε επιμείνει".)
    This is (almost) correct Greek and it also removes the frequent problem of interpreting the Greek second conditional (is this about now or about the past?). This can be part of a long debate.

    However, the translator failed miserably in his second effort (with "έχει εμφανιστεί"), which is a pure figment.
     
  10. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    Cool--PMs are fun. :D

    So this, um, "translation" got pretty creative in certain places, huh? :cool: Thanks so much for checking.
     
  11. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    Wow. Thanks, Acestor.

    Hey, please don't hold that against Americans in general, though. We're not all like that, 'kay? ;)

    That's interesting. I'm surprised he didn't include a recipe for σπανακόπιτα in the text as well while he was at it. :D

    I wonder when this guy's sequel is coming out?????? No doubt it will sell at least 2 or 3 copies! :)

    I think I've learned a big lesson: Never trust anything written about Greek by a non-native speaker of Greek on the Web. :eek:
     
  12. panettonea Senior Member

    English--US
    I looked at this "translation" again. In one of the English sentences, he uses the word "aeroplane." Nobody from the U.S. would ever use that word. So, whatever planet this guy is from, it isn't America. ;)
     

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