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Discussion in 'Ελληνικά (Greek)' started by panettonea, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. panettonea Senior Member

    I have a question about απολέστηκαν, which appears in the following text:

    "...που απολέστηκαν στην Εν-δώρ· έγιναν κοπριά για τη γη...."

    The best I can tell, it's a form of the verb απολλύω. Unfortunately, απολλύω is not listed in any Greek dictionary that I've consulted. Why not? Inquiring minds want to know! :D
  2. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Maybe you didn't search hard enough. :)
    Look at this.
  3. sotos Senior Member

    It' s the passive voice, απολλύομαι. The officially correct is απωλέσθησαν.
  4. Perseas Senior Member

    The verb is πολλύω or πόλλυμι (active voice)/πόλλυμαι (middle & passive voice). It's an ancient verb and maybe this is why you didn't find it in any modern Greek dictionary. Ηowever, some forms of it like "απώλεσα", "απολέστηκαν", "απολεσθέντα" are used in the modern speech.
    You can also consult this Greek-English dictionary: Lidell & Scott.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  5. panettonea Senior Member

    I looked in 5. Shouldn't that have been enough? ;)

    Ευχαριστώ, Τάσσο. Or should that be Τάσσε? I know that a lot of -ος nouns don't follow the more formal -ε rule, like Πέτρος.
  6. panettonea Senior Member

    Thanks, sotos. Why do some of the forms have απο- and some απω-?
  7. panettonea Senior Member

    That would explain it.

    I see.

    Thanks, Perseas.
  8. sotos Senior Member

    The v. is composite, from απο + όλλυμι / ολλύω. In past tenses to initial o- becomes ω- (in ancient and katharevousa, the so called αύξησις), thus, απο + ω- > απω- (e.g. απώλεσα, etc). However, in demotike they don't always observe this rule and the o- remains o- in many cases. Total chaos.
    (I was wrong before with απολλύομαι as passive v. I carelessly copied it from a stupid web-site. Απολύομαι is another v.)
    See this site: http://www.logosconjugator.org/mc/mog.php?id=143962&ul=EN
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  9. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    No, all the regular nouns that can take the vocative follow this rule (σκύλε, γάτε, ήλιε, φίλε etc). The ones that do not follow it are the names (Νίκο!, Πέτρο!, Γιώργο! etc). You might still hear someone using the -ε for the diminutives (Μήτσε!, Σώτε!) but it's rare. Btw it's Τάσο with one σ.
  10. panettonea Senior Member

    I see. Does your average Greek today understand much ancient Greek, or is the difference in meaning/structure too great?

  11. panettonea Senior Member

    The book I have gives 4 main exceptions:

    a) Names of people (both first and last) stressed on the penultimate.
    b) Certain very common two-syllable words, such as γέρος.
    c) Diminutives in -άκος, such as φιλαράκος.
    d) Feminine nouns, such as νήσος. Actually, it says that for these feminine nouns, the vocative is rare, but is more likely to end in -ο.

    OK, thanks. Perhaps by removing one "σ," you're being provocative. :D
  12. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    I'll try to be brief (as we are basically off-topic)

    (a) - (c) yes
    (b) yeah, but which are these words? (nothing pops to my mind right now) (and note: it's "γέρο!" but "παλιόγερε!")
    (d) Here, I don't agree. If I were to write a poem, I'd go with "νήσε!", "οδέ!".
  13. sotos Senior Member

    It depents on one's education (or age). I can read and understand, with some effort, classical texts although I'm not a philologist. (So, it's the age factor). I don't understand Homer without dictionary.
  14. velisarius Senior Member

    British English (Sussex)
    My grown-up children were educated in Greek state schools and, not being particularly interested in Ancient Greek, they understand even less than I do. I think they are typical of their generation.
  15. panettonea Senior Member

    Here are a couple more it mentioned: διάκος, δράκος.

    It didn't actually say that -ε would be wrong, just that -ο would be more likely. However, I guess not everyone will agree on this.


    So the more ancient you are, the more likely you are to understand ancient Greek, huh? ;)
  16. velisarius Senior Member

    British English (Sussex)
    "So the more ancient you are, the more likely you are to understand ancient Greek, huh? ;)"

    Not necessarily; my husband, who is pretty ancient, is also σκράπας :(at Ancient Greek. :)
  17. ireney

    ireney Modistra

    Greek Greece
    Moderator's note: One topic per thread please!
  18. Αγγελος Senior Member

    απόλλυμι (=I lose, I destroy) belongs to the ancient athematic conjugation, the present and imperfect active forms of which have gone completely out of use, even in καθαρεύουσα. Some passive presents are still in use, such as εκτίθεμαι (προτίθεμαι, διατίθεμαι...) or εξ(αν)ίσταμαι, but not απόλλυμαι (=I am lost, I perish). The aorist forms, however, whose morphology was no different from those of the thematic conjugation, are still in occasional use. In the indicative they are απώλεσα (active) and απωλέσθην (passive), with an ω in accordance with a rule of ancient Greek grammar which has been abolished in modern Greek (thus, "I rushed", spelt ὥρμησα in ancient Greek and in καθαρεύουσα, is nowadays spelt όρμησα, in agreement with the present ορμώ and the noun ορμή); in the subjunctive they are απολέσω and απολεσθώ, respectively, always with an o; and the passive aorist participle τα απολεσθέντα is still used for the "lost and found" section in train stations and such places. The indicative and subjunctive forms are typical of journalese -- no one would use them in everyday talk. The cognate noun απώλεια (=loss) is in fairly common use, though.
    The usual word for "lose" is of course χάνω, which can also refer to a game and whose passive χάνομαι can also mean "lose one's way" or even 'perish'.
  19. panettonea Senior Member

    Thanks for all the helpful info, Αγγελε.
  20. giosx

    giosx New Member

    It depents on the age of education to be precise...
    Until '80's ancient form of language was teached at schools, but later on it was "modernally" abandoned for not the kids to suffer... at studying.
    So they left mixo-learners of new greek lang... most of people below 40 years old (unless the study on purpose) don't understand ancient nor modern polytonic pre80's greek texts of literature... A huge crime has been made on language, by cutting the roots to the catharevousa (and koinh) among ancient....
    Only people over 50's can understand in great extend catharevousa or politonic and ancient texts..... Poor little neo-(modernized) language-less Greeks.
    Am a Greek too. But with the good old grammar, so i cane read-write and absorb the old literature..

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