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Живи по правильному, дверь отворя

Discussion in 'Русский (Russian)' started by seitt, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Greetings

    Re:
    Нас время учило
    Живи по правильному, дверь отворя
    (Була́т Ша́лвович Окуджа́ва)

    Please could you translate/explain Живи по правильному, дверь отворя?

    However, it may be that по правильному is not the correct lyric as it doesn't seem to scan – I wonder what the correct word might be? Perhaps you could kindly have a quick listen to the song to find out, please?

    Best wishes, and many thanks,

    Simon
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  2. gvozd

    gvozd Senior Member


    Where did you find "по-правильному"? The song contains the word "по-походному". Живи по-походному, дверь отворя means 'don't stay too long in one place'.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  3. slavic_one

    slavic_one Senior Member

    Prague, Czech Republic
    Croatian (štokavski, jekavski)
    He says "живи по-привальному".
     
  4. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks - it would seem there are a number of versions. I got my lyrics from the Internet.

    What does по-привальному mean, please?

    Is отворя a past active participle?
     
  5. gvozd

    gvozd Senior Member

    It means the same - don't stay too long in (at?) one place. Привал - camp. Yes, отворя is a past active participle. I'm not sure, but I think this form is a bit outdated and is used mostly in poetry. In daily speech I would use "отвори́в".
     
  6. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Much obliged - по-привальному is based on прива́л, isn't it? Here is Collins on прива́л:
    привал = (в пути) stop; (место остановки) stopping place

    Has по-привальному been derived directly from привал, or via an intermediate привальный?
     
  7. gvozd

    gvozd Senior Member

    Yes, the basis is привал. Adverbs and adjectives are usually derived directly from nouns.
     
  8. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    I'd say it has been derived directly from привальный like по-дурацки - from дурацкий and по-турецки - from турецкий. But привальный is derived of course from привал.
     
  9. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks, much obliged.
    Now, this is interesting. I realize that terminology isn’t always constant, but taking Offord’s “Using Russian” as my basis, отворя is the gerund from отворять (imperfective) and means “opening”, while отвори́в is the gerund from отвори́ть (perfective) and means “having opened”. So are you saying that the distinction between the imperfective and the perfective gerund is becoming blurred in Colloquial Russian?
     
  10. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    By the way, adverbial participles can be called Russian gerund at a very strong stretch, and this is quite confusing. As for отворя, this is really outdated and poetical form of отворив, which is the adverbial participle for both verbs отворить and отворять.
    And here is why "gerund" term is confusing: adverbial participles can be used as adverbial modifier of manner as well as just adverbial participles, cf. (and note the comma):

    Отворя дверь, он вошел.
    Он работал отворя дверь (с открытой дверью).

    Not at all, just both отворя and отворив are perfective, unlike отворяя which is imperfective.
     
  11. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks, most enlightening.
    Indeed I see now that 'gerund' is a confusing term; presumably I would have learnt that term a long time ago and forgotten it, but was still influenced by it in my subconscious mind, which is why I had trouble with дверь отворя as an adverbial modifier of manner in the song - would you agree that the best translation in most cases of this kind (not necessarily here) is "with the door open"? Or "keeping the door open"? Presumably the expression does not tell us who opened the door in the first place; the important thing is that you make sure it remains open?
     
  12. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Yes, I think so: живи с отворенной дверью. Another question, is what exactly is meant: keep the door open for others to enter or for yourself to leave home any moment for a war or prison? I doubt anybody can answer definetely, as this is a multylayer poetry, with a number of non-evident underlying senses.
     
  13. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks, indeed there is great subtlety here. I guess the answer to your question would be both.
     

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