Мамины, лисий

Discussion in 'Русский (Russian)' started by franknagy, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Hello,
    I beg your pardon for I do not know neither the official Russian nor the English name of Мамины, лисий ... like adjectives.
    What is the rule, from which relatives, men and animals can they be formed?
    Is there a complete list of them anywhere?
    Is this set already closed or is it still enlarged by new members in the living Russian?
    When I have to use
    , vs.
    ?
    Does it depend on possessed что-то or something else?

    Thank you so much
    Frank
     
  2. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Мамин is possessive adjective from мама. Мамин - belonging to мама.
    So мамино платье and платье мамы mean the same.
    Such adjectives usually form from the nouns meaning humans and from their names (but hardly surnames): папино ружье, прадедушкин стул, тещин язык, Ленино колье (колье Лены). But they form not from any such noun. For example, снохина дочь sounds weird, although formally it may exist. From some nouns it is formed by use of suffix ов/ев: шуринова работа, инженеров дом, докторов саквояж. These forms sound colloquial or obsolete, though.

    Лисий is an adjective from лиса, лисий - made of fox [fur] (like медвежья шуба, бобровый воротник, etc.) or belonging to fox (лисий хвост) or resembling fox (лисья мордочка).
    These adjectives can be formed, I guess, from any noun, meaning object.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  3. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    The problem is that the ин/ов-adjectives are colloquial or obsolete, while the genitive often sounds terribly artificial («платье мамы» is close to impossible), so that the language at its current state has no neutral and productive way to express these relationships.
     
  4. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Why do you think possesive form with -ин is colloquial?
     
  5. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    «Мамин/папин/бабушкин/дедушкин» are actually not, though the generative words themselves belong to a rather intimate circle. Otherwise, most possessive adjectives on -ин in the modern language are confined to a spoken register: «Наташин/Натальин/Валерин/Серёжин». Those on -ов have almost disappeared, the only one residually productive pattern I can imagine is scientific terms (for the reason that many of them were created in the past and are in use in the respective sciences) — «евклидово пространство/риманова геометрия/пифагоровы штаны/дарвиновы вьюрки/флориновы кольца».
     
  6. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    By the way, here in St. Petersburg we have several streets on -ова/ева/ина, named so in the 18th century and totally cryptic to modern laypeople, e. g. «Бармалеева улица» was named after «Бармалей», but 99% of people believe now the street is called «улица Бармалеева» after some «Бармалеев». The same with e. g. «Опочинина улица». This can be found even on some maps made in the last 20 years.
     
  7. Miralasa Junior Member

    Russian
    -ов/-ев is a perfectly productive model for nouns and names of 2nd declension.

    лисий is a special kind of adjective used for animals mostly: it has -ь- suffix in its declension.
     
  8. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Could you please provide some examples? «Сергеев паспорт/Николаев дом/Путиново выступление/паспортова обложка»? Something like this?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  9. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    I don't understand Ahvalj why is «платье мамы» is close to impossible.
    Do you mean that I have to use «мамино платье» so on to everything belongs to Mummy until «мамино платье» until «маминa последная пощёчина» which I have got from her in my age of 24?


    It sounds like
    Нинина нитка.
    :)

    I do not know why these adjectives weren't taught in Hungary in my childhood when only the genitive case was forced.
    Maybe somebody thought their declination to be difficult.
    I have met лисий in animal fables and медвежье услугие in an illustrated book of Russian sayings.


    Regards
    Frank
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  10. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    You can use both "мамино платье" and "платье мамы". Both the expressions have exactly the same meaning and could be used in the same sentences.
     
  11. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    First of all, we have to separate two categories: possessive adjectives denoting belonging (-ов/ин-) and relative adjectives (-и/ск- etc.) denoting, consequently, some more remote kind of relationship («лисицын» means a closer possession than «лисий»). What I am trying to explain here is the situation with the first kind of adjectives.

    Historically, the Slavic languages used possessive adjectives when the subject of possession was a single noun («мамино платье») and the Genitive when the grammatical subject consisted of a noun + something else («платье моей мамы» since «*моемамино платье» was impossible). This situation, as far as I know, still persists in e. g. Czech and Slovak. In Russian with centuries the strength of the possessive adjectives became weaker so that now they have preserved in cases outlined in the above posts. In the spoken language in a narrow circle of words the state of affairs is still close to the original one, therefore «мамино платье» is OK, but «платье мамы» can mostly be used in some emphatic situations (like «это платье — мамы, а не твоё»). Also «мамина последняя пощёчина» is OK since both «мамина» and «последняя» determine the noun (but compare «тридцатая любовь Марины» when the author wanted to emphasize the person).

    When we come to the standard language and the neutral topics, the possessive adjectives are mostly dead («Путиново выступление» is impossible, only «выступление Путина»), though in a less formal register you can often use relative adjectives instead (i. e. «путинское выступление»), even if etymologically it is wrong. The Genitive, in its turn, being a new formation in this situation, still bears some shade of formality and artificiality, even if it is the only way to express the relationship in the neutral style. With time, in a couple of centuries, I think this shade will disappear and my above note will become irrelevant. But so far the things are as they are: possessive adjectives are obsolete, while the Genitive still not quite universal and neutral.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  12. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Thank you Ahvalj for the detailed explanation.
    I have understood this statement.
    The second fact that I have perceived that possessive adjectives are fading out from the Russian language. They are preserved for frequently used everyday possessors like mummy and fox but they are not formed from the new nouns.
    Languages preserve obsolete structures for frequently used words and they decline/conjugate the rarer used words according to the younger rules.

    Regards
    Frank
     
  13. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    Sorry, can't agree with that. In my opinion, "платье мамы" is absolutely neutral expression with no "obsolete" tint at all. "Я постирал / заштопал / нашел / испачкал платье мамы / сестры / подруги" are usual constructions often used in colloquial speech. Moreover, the constructions "сестрино платье" is looking quite obsolete (you can't hear it in the modern speech), and "подругино платье" is impossible to say at all.
     
  14. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    «Сестрино» and «подругино» are dead indeed, whereas «мамино» alive and well. Probably we're dealing with some regional differences here since a usage like «я постирал/заштопал/нашёл/испачкал платье мамы» sounds clumsy and unnatural to me.
     
  15. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Not quite: they are preserved for some family nouns («мамин/папин/бабушкин/дедушкин/дядин/тётин» and several more), but names on -а/я can form them with almost no limitations in the spoken register («Сашин/Машин/Васин» but also «Анжелин/Кристинин» for recent and unusual names). Even «Обамин» can be met with a humorous connotation (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=обамин&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).
     
  16. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    I have checked Google and indeed «платье мамы» is several times more frequent than «мамино платье». Well, then St. Petersburg seems to be more conservative in this respect than the russosphere as a whole. Still, «платье мамы» sounds weird here.
     
  17. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    You might be correct that the difference between your and my feelings is based on the regional differences. Russia is a very big country.

    Интересно, питерские гопники разговаривают так же, как в анекдотах? :D
     
  18. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Никогда не слышал анекдотов про питерских гопников. А как они разговаривают? Меня на Урале всегда поражало, что у вас там глотают гласные, особенно в окончаниях.
     
  19. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    Питерские гопники настолько интеллигентны, что прежде чем отобрать мобильник, долго говорят с жертвой о поэзии, живописи, спорят о классической музыке, и угощают семечками... ;)

    Это вы о какой местности? Урал - это пять областей. Территория как бы не побольше европейской части России.
     
  20. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Меня они пугаются и не подходят ,-)

    Сильнее всего в Перми (слышал по местному радио в поезде); в Екатеринбурге (бывал там лично) и Коми (коллега из Сыктывкара) речь несколько менее отрывиста. Кроме того, часто вместо безударного а-образного звука слышен скорее э-образный (утрируя: каторый > к'тор'й/кэтор'й).
     
  21. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    Хм. Ничего не скажу за Пермь (не бывал) и Коми (ее традиционно не относят к Уралу, хотя Северный Урал она захватывает), но в моем Екатеринбурге я не замечал особых отличий речи от среднестатистических. Московское аканье я слышу, но слух оно мне не режет.

    Следует понимать, что на Урале много татар и башкир с их традиционным произношением. Кроме того, во время ВОВ на Урал (в том числе в Свердловск) эвакуировали московские и питерские заводы, так что у нас до сих пор можно услышать самое разное произношение и самую разную лексику. Например, традиционный западный флейм "бордюр vs. поребрик" у нас не в ходу, мы используем оба термина. :) То же самое и с речью.
     
  22. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Словарных отличий я не замечал (тем более, что это всё равно касается нескольких слов и оборотов), но произношение обращает на себя внимание сразу. При этом далее на восток (Новосибирск, Красноярск, Благовещенск) особенности сглаживаются (если не считать дальневосточных украинцев). На мой взгляд, уральский (в широком смысле) акцент — второй по характерности после южного.
     
  23. Lotto74 Junior Member

    Ekaterinburg city - Russia
    Russian - Russia
    Интересное наблюдение. Я лично ничего особенного в уральском говоре не слышу, но рыба воду не чувствует. Попробую прислушаться.
     

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