Произношение буквы 'л' в разговорной речи

Discussion in 'Русский (Russian)' started by b4nny, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. b4nny Senior Member

    Seattle, WA, USA
    English - US
    Is the letter л sometimes pronounced like у in colloquial speech? For example, one time I think I heard someone say "я ходиу", almost like an English w.
     
  2. gvozd

    gvozd Senior Member

    No, never. That particular person just speaks with a burr. The word 'burr' is used for the 'r' sound. Try to imagine the same for 'л' in Russian.
     
  3. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Maybe he spoke with Ukrainian or South-Russian accent (Ukrainain - я ходив = Russian я ходил).
    Ukrainian "в" is really spelled [ʋ] or [w].
     
  4. Vektus

    Vektus Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    No, if the person is from Russia, it's just a defect in pronunciation.
     
  5. Enquiring Mind

    Enquiring Mind Senior Member

    UK/Česká republika
    English - the Queen's
    As a native English speaker, like the original poster, I understand "where he's coming from" (as we so often say now, in other words "the reasons which prompted him to make the statement") on this. I think it may be to do with the velarised "l" which, to an English native, can sometimes sound like a close approximation of the "w" sound in English, especially if the velar "l" is accompanied, as it usually is, by a rounding of the lips as in the English "w".
    There's a previous related thread here. It may, indeed, have been poor/lazy pronunciation or a speech defect, and I'm not suggesting that the the "l as w" Russian speaker had any connection with Polish - we obviously cannot know. I do know, however, that in Slovak too there is an a similar-sounding "l" which may, especially in combination with certain vowel sounds, be heard by an English speaker as something like a "w".
    Obviously, what we think we "hear" and what the speaker thinks he actually "said" can be very different. It's highly subjective.
     
  6. Sobakus Senior Member

    To sum it up, pronouncing hard -л as [w] is standard for Belarusian and Polish, a variant for Ukrainian(I mostly hear a fricative [v]), and is considered a pronounciation defect in Russian.
     
  7. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    How is it? In Ukrainian and Belorussian there is just no "л" in the ending of the verbs in the Past Tense (Masc. Sing.). There is "в" or "ў", pronounced more or less like [w]. They do not pronounce "л" like "в", they pronounce [w] in place of Russian л.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  8. Russianer Senior Member

    Russia,St.-Petersburg City.
    Russian language- Russia.
    "Л" никогда не произносится как "у" в русском языке.

    Звук У вместо звуков "л" и "в" - это белорусский язык, а также смесь русского с белорусским.. (иногда даже русские говорят в Беларуси "пайшоу" вместо "пошёл", "Махилёу" вместо "Могилёв", "Палыкауския Хутары" вместо "Полыковские Хутора", "косиу Язь конюшину" вместо "косил Ясь клевер..").
     
  9. Syline Senior Member

    Russian
    What about English dark L? Is it not articulated just the same way as Russian hard Л?
     
  10. Sobakus Senior Member

    Uhh, you can just as well say that some Russians don't pronounce л as [w] but pronounce [w] in place of the others' л. But I'm sure any Pole or Belarusian will tell you otherwise, because for them [l] and [w] are a single phoneme, read the thread provided by Enquiring Mind if you have doubts. Dropping the etymological spelling doesn't suddenly make it a different phoneme.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  11. Sobakus Senior Member

    As I understand it, the dark L is a dialectal variant of the standard L and is indeed pronounced like the Russian one. The funny thing is that in most British dialects it suffers the same vocalisation to [w] that we discuss, and so does the standard English L, especially in the north and in Cockney too.
     
  12. Syline Senior Member

    Russian
    I know that the Polish ł sounds like w. You can compare Russian милый with Polish miły.

    No, it is not a dialectal variant. What do you mean by the standard L? Compare the first L and the second one in the word "little", or L in "light" with L in "milk".
     
  13. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Polish ł tends to be spelled like w in various (all?) positions (although this is rather recent effect, they say 50-60 years only). But in Ukrainian and Belorussian w is in the endings of the verbs for centuries, and there is no tendency to substitute л with w in other places. Or how you think Belorussians pronounce вал, галава or лавелас?
     
  14. Sobakus Senior Member

    Well I can say with certainity that its not only the -л participles: вовк/воўк, the conjunction в/ў/у and other cases of it being in place of the etymological [v]. It also changes to [v] when followed by a vowel, which shows it's not a separate phoneme (not sure if it changes to [l] too). In Polish it's an approximant in all positions.
     
  15. Sobakus Senior Member

    Ah, all right, so the dark L is the one that's not followed by a vowel. It indeed is dental like the Russian one is. Thanks for clarification. But apparently a dialectal feature is pronouncing it even before a vowel, this thread suggests.
     
  16. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Very well, but can it be interpreted like "for them [l] and [w] are a single phoneme"?
    Is it that Belorussians do not distinguish them in вал, галава or лавелас?
     
  17. Sobakus Senior Member

    Yeah well, I guess I'm wrong here. Apparently it's an allophone of В, not Л, even though etymologically it can be either Л or В.
     

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