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צריך / לא צריך

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by hadronic, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I've got a question about צריך and its negative form.
    It seems to mean "to need" when followed by a noun, and "must" when followed by a verb.
    אני צריך נעליים : I need shoes
    אני צריך לראות : I must see.

    Question : may "אני צריך לראות" mean "I need to see" ? If yes, how do you distinguish ?

    In the same way, at the negative form, it seems to mean solely "need not" when followed by a noun, and "mustn't" when followed by a verb.
    אני לא צריך נעליים : I don't need shoes
    אני לא צריך לראות : I musn't see

    Question : may "אני לא צריך לראות" mean "I need not see" / "I don't have to see" ? I've got here an example that says "אין צריך לומר" that translates as "useless to say" (= "it need not say").
     
  2. amikama

    amikama sordomodo

    ישראל
    עברית
    אני צריך לראות doesn't mean "I must see" but "I have to see".
    אני לא צריך לראות doesn't mean "I mustn't see" but "I don't have to see".

    I must see = אני חייב/מוכרח לראות
    I mustn't see = אסור לי לראות
     
  3. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Sorry, for my matter, I wasn't distinguishing between "must" and "have to", they both express obligation in a way or the other. It just translates the debate to the צריך/חייב distinction, but thanks for bringing this to my attention. My point was : could אני צריך לראות mean "I need to see" , as it would for "shoes" ? -No.

    For the negative form, I'm pretty sure of having seen it with a meaning of interdiction (and not absence of obligation) numerous times.
    Taken from the internet :
    אתה לא צריך לשכוח מאיפה אתה בא
    אני לא אומר שאתה לא צריך לעשן,אין לי בעייה עם זה
     
  4. amikama

    amikama sordomodo

    ישראל
    עברית
    Why "no"? אני צריך לראות does mean "I need to see".

    This is my interpretation of these sentences:
    אתה לא צריך לשכוח מאיפה אתה בא = You should not forget [...]
    אני לא אומר שאתה לא צריך לעשן,אין לי בעייה עם זה = I don't say that you don't have to smoke, [...]
     
  5. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    אני צריך לראות means for you "I need to see" and "I have to see" ? That's 2 different meanings IMHO.

    In fact, it seems that I put "have to" and "must" on one side under the same label "obligation" and "need" on another side under "necessity", but that you put it differently, namely "must" on one side for "obligation" and "have to" / "need" under "necessity"...

    "I dont say that you don't have to smoke" makes little sense to me. It's as if you were saying "I don't say that it's ok if you don't smoke", as "you don't have to go" for instance means the exact same thing as "It's OK if you don't go".

    And by the way, "you should not forget" is interdiction (a lighter, more polite one, but still). By no means it would mean "you don't have to forget".
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  6. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I found that text, that clearly enumerates a list of "do/don't"s.

    שנאמרו על ידי אלוהים כדי Siva Narada Muni

    120 אחד צריך לקחת מחסה של לורד Krsna. לא צריך לקחת מחסה
    אף אחד חוץ ממנו. לא צריך לשאוף להשיג אף אחד חוץ ממנו. צריך
    אבל אף אחד לא רצון בו. לא צריך שום מטרה חוץ ממנו.

    <snipped>
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  7. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    It looks like computerized translation from a foreign language.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  8. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Fine. But what about my other examples ?
     
  9. Maayan Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Hi hadronic,

    I think that in MH צריך and חייב are almost synonymous.
    For example:
    אתה חייב/צריך לראות כדי להאמין - you must see (it) to believe...
    אתה חייב/צריך עניבה כדי להכנס למועדון- you need a tie in order to enter the club

    The difference is that חייב is the "stronger" of the two.

    Same in negatives:
    אתה לא צריך/חייב להתרגז על כל שטות - you don't have to fuss over nothing
    אתה לא צריך/חייב עניבה בכניסה למועדון - you don't need a tie for this club
     
  10. jdotjdot89 Senior Member

    Barcelona
    American English
    I would say that Maayan is correct, maybe adding that חייב is more often understood with connotations of obligation, whereas צריך connotes more of a feeling of necessity.

    That being said, they're really not so different. It's very subtle and doesn't really matter that much.
     

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