الأفعال المركبة

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Reema, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. Reema Junior Member

    Arabic
    Do phrasal verbs exist in Arabic? If so, can you provide examples and explain their meanings?~!

    Thanks
     
  2. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    No they don't exist.
     
  3. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    I think those exist only in English.
     
  4. Reema Junior Member

    Arabic
    We know that a phrasal verb has meaning which is different from the original verb, so what can we say about the two verbs:
    يرمي to throw or to cast
    و
    يرمي إلى to aim to
    :confused:
     
  5. feeskaa

    feeskaa Senior Member

    casablanca المغرب
    Morocco العربية
    Phrasal verbs no!!! But let's take for example this verb:
    رمى ارتمى ترامى​
    If you look in the dictionnary for the verb رمى , you will find the others, they go around the same "notion" but without having the same meaning, adding one or two letters to the main verb changes slightly it's signification!!!
    I know it's not like phrasal verbs but that's the first thing that came to my mind while reading your message!!​


    :Dالرجاء تصحيح اية اخطاء ارتكبتها و شكرا​
     
  6. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    First, يرمي إلى is not a verb. It is a verb and a preposition (two words).

    Second, which is more importatnt, you misunderstood the case. The adding of إلى didn't change the meaning of the verb because the verb يرمي alone can mean يقصد.

    ."رَمَى الْمَكانَ" : قَصَدَهُ.

    The adding of إلى is just a modern habitude, I am not sure if it was even correct in the first place. The verb is transitive and does not need حرف تعدية.
     
  7. Reema Junior Member

    Arabic
    Hani,
    First, can't I call يرمي إلى a phrasal verb being composed of a verb + a preposition?

    Second, I am 100% sure that this (two-word) verb is used, and in formal contexts.
    Are you sure about
    رمى المكان أي قصده
    I know that no research were ever conducted on phrasal verbs in Arabic and that's why many believe they do not exist..


    يصير is one verb with one meaning and يصير لـِ (Saudi dialect) is another with a comletely different meaning..

    Am I confusing you? cause I am confused myself!!


    Freeska,

    what do you call رمى إرتمى ترامى? :confused:
     
  8. feeskaa

    feeskaa Senior Member

    casablanca المغرب
    Morocco العربية
    Hello Reema,
    I wanted to mean that in arabic phrasal verbs do not exist, and i am totaly ok with Hani, i mean the meaning of the verb does not really change in arabic when you add a preposition!!

    When i read your message, i thaught immediatly of this kind of verbs, i mean ones like in the example.
    If you want to look for the verbترامى in an arabic dictionnary, meaning in the letter ت you won't find it, because you should look for the verb رمى that we can call the "root". Adding letter to the root gives a different meaning to the verb, ترامى doesn't mean the same as رمى.

    I said in the message that it is not like phrasal verbs, it is just a specificity of Arabic.
    Anyway, we call the root verb الفعل الاصلي and the others الافعال المشتقة.

    Hope i've been helpful. :)
     
  9. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    Reema,

    I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is impossible in the Arabic language that a حرف change the meaning of any verb.

    حروف الجرaffect the meaning of a verb in only one way: التعدية .

    إذا غير حرف التعدية معنى الفعل ، فإن المعنى الجديد هو خاطئ حتما !

    About the meaning of ramaa, I am not sure but this is what the معاجم said. Why don't you make sure yourself?

    يصير لي ويجيز لي are colloquial words. Although the meaning here is still not changed.
     
  10. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    Ever heard of the city رام الله ?

    Or of the poetry house:إذا غامرت في شرف مروم فلا تقنع بما دون النجوم

    This is the same root, I think.
     
  11. feeskaa

    feeskaa Senior Member

    casablanca المغرب
    Morocco العربية
    السلام
    الا ترى بان معنى الفعل "رمى" يتغير عند اضافة الالف و التاء ?
    "ارتمى في احضان امه"
    "رمى الحجر في الوادي"
    "ترامت اطراف الغرفة"
    تحية طيبة​
     
  12. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    نعم. ولكن هل هذا فريزل فيرب ؟

    الاشتقاق أمر لا غبار عليه، ولكني لا أعتقد أنه يصلح بأن يسمى فريزل فيرب.

    تحياتي...
     
  13. Reema Junior Member

    Arabic
    هاني​

    شكراً لمجهوداتك ولكن هلاَّ تفضلت مشكوراً بذكر المصدر الذي استقيت منه معلوماتك, أريد أن أستزيد حول هذا الموضوع فما أعرفه أن أحداً من قبل لم يتطرق إلى هذا ولذا إرتأيتُ أنه جدير بالبحث ​


    freeska بالمناسبة, أتفق مع
    على أن الأفعال المشتقة تضيف بُعداً معنوياً آخر غير ذلك الذي يوحي به الفعل
    الأصلي
    طلب أخير هلاَّ استفضت قليلاً حول نقطة التعدية
    :)والشكر مجددٌ لك​
     
  14. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    الحقيقة مصدر معلوماتي هو أنني لم أسمع قط من قبل بأن هناك حرف جر يغير معنى فعل. ولم أقرأ قط عن أي شيء كهذا.

    التعدية باختصارهي أن الفعل الذي لا يأخذ مفعولا به يتعدى بحرف إلى معموله ، مثال :

    نام السرير
    نام على السرير

    وقف الطريق
    وقف في الطريق

    الفريزل فيرب يأخذ معنى مغايرا للفعل الأصلي :
    pull for ليس لها علاقة بـ pull الذي معناه هو السحب.

    أما المثال الذي أوردتيه فقد أريتك ما جاء في القاموس من أن رمى تعني قصد.

    وبإمكانك أن تتابعي البحث على كل حال ... سلام ...
     
  15. Arrius

    Arrius Senior Member

    Spain
    English, UK
    I think those exist only in English Hani D
    In fact there are probably even more phrasal verbs in German and Dutch and also quite a lot in the Scandinavian languages, and other languages closely related to these.
    Where English uses a particle to compose a phrasal verb in order to modify the meaning of the basic verb, Arabic,changes or lengthens the vowels, doubles the consonants, and uses prefixes, suffixes and infixes to do this. In addition there are compound verbs like overtake (as opposed to the phrasal verb, take over), in all of these European languages, in which the particle is not separable but does a similar job.
     
  16. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    Arrius,

    I think you're the making the same mistake here. The dictionary says:

    Phrasal verb: a verb followed by an adverb, a preposition, or both, used with an idiomatic meaning that is often quite different from the literal meaning of the individual words.

    Are you sure that there are words in German, for example, that fulfill this?
     
  17. Arrius

    Arrius Senior Member

    Spain
    English, UK
    Absolutely! At the risk of being deleted for irrelevance here is an example: "Gib es doch auf!" (Just give it up) in which the basic meaning of geben is give and of auf inter alia on or up, which combined mean to renounce, to surrender. It was from the dominant Germanic element (Anglo-Saxon, and to a lesser extent Old Norse) that English inherited its phrasal verbs and its tendency to make more.
     
  18. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    I have failed to find doch auf or a similar combination in the dictionary.

    I understand what you talk about. But there is always the possibility of it being a mimicing of English. This exists in many languages, even in Japanese.
     
  19. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    The verb is aufgeben, consisting of the stem verb geben plus the particle auf. In Arrius's sentence, the particle auf was separated from the stem gib (the conjugated form of geben needed in this sentence) in accordance with German syntactical rules that are way beyond the scope of this thread.
    This is most certainly not an English influence! Verb-particle combinations are very common in Germanic languages. Aufgeben is to geben what give up is to give (although the meanings don't always overlap, of course), and I can say with a fair amount of certainty that neither is a borrowing from the other. :)

    It's usually wise to refrain from making universal statements about the languages of the world unless you have a source to back up your claim or know every language there is. :D
     
  20. Reema Junior Member

    Arabic


    :)وأنا أيضاً لم أسمع ولذا سأوجه البحث إلى منحىً آخر! شكراً جزيلاً لك

    :)والشكر موصولٌ لكل من تكرم بالرد​
     
  21. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    Well, we have to decide here, and ahead of everything, whether "overtake" is a phrasel verb.

    Thanks. I am very aware of that. This is why you can't see any universal statements in your quotation of me.
     
  22. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Not really, as this thread is about Arabic. :D
    My statement was meant as a gentle piece of advice in response to your post #3. Kulshi wala za3alak. ;)
     
  23. Hani_D Banned

    Arabic
    Laish ez-za3al ? I am not.

    بدنا متحدث للإنغليزية يعرب لنا

    "I think"

    وبعدها منتفاهم ...

    Then aufgeben is not a phrasal verb, according to yourself.
    Thanks for the clarification. ​
     
  24. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    تخافش علي، كنت منتبه إنك كتبت "I think" بس بالرغم من ذلك ما قلتلناش على أي أساس عندك هدا الرأي. على كل حال بحب أكرر إني بس حبيت أعطي نصيحة عامة إلك وللأعضاء الباقيين إللي هي ناتجة عن خبرتي بالمنتدى. :)
    When did I say that? :) On the contrary, I said that aufgeben works pretty much like give up in English, so the phrasal-verb phenomenon is not unique to English. However, this is well beyond the scope of the Arabic forum so if you wish to further pursue the topic of phrasal verbs in different languages feel free to open a thread in the Other Languages forum.
     

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