عصور التقليد والجمود الفقهي

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Huda, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Please help me.

    Would anyone please help me translate the underlined phrase:

    ووجدنا كذلك في – عصور التقليد والجمود الفقهي – تعريف بعض «الفقهاء» لعقد النكاح، فإذا به: «عقد تمليك بُضْع الزوجة»!!..

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    in the ages of imitation and jurisprudential inflexibility
     
  3. AndyRoo Senior Member

    London
    English
    Not sure, but maybe:

    In eras of entrenched traditions and religious intransigence
     
  4. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    I would actually keep تقليد as "taqliid​" and perhaps add an explanation in parenthesis.
     
  5. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    عصور التقليد والجمود الفقهي

    is that the title of a book?

    Perhaps, "Times of intellectual decline & scientific stagnation"
     
  6. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
     
  7. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    I cannot choose between stagnation and intransigence.
    Which one do you think is better?
     
  8. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    Huda I'm trying to get the spirit of what's being said not so much the literal words. When islamic taqleed is mentioned people mean by it not simply adherence to prior traditions & rulings. The term also implies lack of uninhibited scholastic thought, hence decline.

    As far as fiqhee, yes I could say juristic stagnation but in my mind the word juristic in english doesnot embrace all the nuance of fiqh in Arabic. For example the rituals of prayer is fiqh but not thought of as jurisprudence in english. Instead we'd call that religious sciences. ,
     
  9. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    ^Huda does that make sense? Or you see where I'm coming from?
    The more literal translations I worked out were all very unnatural sounding, long and verbose.
     
  10. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Yes it makes sense and I know you're a native speaker. However, it's the first time I've known that فقه could be translated religious sciences. Thanks a million Suma.
     
  11. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    It cannot be translated as anything apart from jurisprudence; فقه is also used for non-religious jurisprudence as I'm sure you're aware.
    As for جمود it's inflexibility - if you want to use intransigence be aware it denotes only un-changing-ness with time not place.
    Also تقليد simply means 'imitation' and takes on a more specific meaning in the context of islamic sciences (العلوم الإسلامية) - it doesn't hold connotations of backwardness and it is not for the translator to introduce this connotation. It continues to this day; many authorities on Islam insist that each individual must follow and imitate a particular leader.

    I see no need to go for anything other than a close-to-literal translation; this kind of text is clearly intended for a specialist reader; the reader can decipher it for themselves, just as the Arabic-speaking reader does.

    Nor do I approve of transliteration where avoidable; else we end up with something that reads like:
    We found also - in the Usur of Taqliid and Jumuud Fiqhi - the Tarif of some Fuqahaa for the Aqd of Nikah, etc.
    Such books are commonplace in England, and are useless in my opinion because the reader can clearly already understand Arabic (or Urdu or Farsi as the case may be) so they may as well read the original text.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  12. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Thanks a million اسكندراني I appreciate your help.
    Why do we not use stagnation as suma suggested. I believe inflexibility is not the right word here.
     
  13. Mighis

    Mighis Senior Member

    Temsaman
    Berber
    Suma's translation is the most efficient one: eras of intellectual decline and scientific stagnation If I add "in juridical thinking" to it, so we get:
    The eras of intellectual decline and scientific stagnation in juridical thinking.

    You have to be aware of the context of so-called Ijtihad because there has always been an imitation: before and after these eras.
     
  14. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Huda, stagnation means ركود, while جمود is 'inflexibility' or maybe 'traditionalism'.
    Mighis, calling imitation 'decline and stagnation' is contradictory with your final statement!
     
  15. Mighis

    Mighis Senior Member

    Temsaman
    Berber
    Yes, so true; that's why I said that he has to be aware of the context of Ijtihad in order to distinguish between issues which are susceptible to Ijtihad and issues which are not. :D
     
  16. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    In this text translating تقليد as "imitation" shows a lack of fluency in the target language, I'm sorry to say.
    It is very much like US court rulings where the judge relies upon and adheres to the ruling of an earlier court, sometimes called "precedence".
    We simply don't use the word imitation in such contexts.

    Jurispudence doesn't have as wide a usage as Arabic فقه .
    I do like Mighis' suggestion: "in juridical thinking" although it is unavoidably long and verbose
     
  17. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Maybe precedence would be more suitable then. I don't claim to be an expert on legal terminology. The thing is, I don't think تقليد would be used in Arabic judicial systems today either... they must have some other word, so the expression is restricted to Islamic law as far as I'm aware (and common use of course).

    Jurisprudence is widely used, though, I must disagree there. Maybe not in the states I guess. What else are jurists into? It may not always transfer directly; what would you call someone like a فقيه دستوري? A constitutional expert?
    تقليد is following in the footsteps of those who went before you in every religious aspect of your life, however widely you choose to interpret that - that's what I understand of the term...
    In any case it's Huda's call!
     
  18. Schem

    Schem Senior Member

    Unaizah
    Najdi Arabic
    I second Iskandarani here. I always found the use of Arabic terms with obvious English equivalents pointless and alienating.
     
  19. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Just a small correction / clarification:
    In the branch of فقه known as أصول الدين, there is a complementary concept to تقليد which is called اجتهاد. The reason عصور التقليد are dismissed as جمود فكري is because they were times in which اجتهاد was discouraged.
     
  20. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    So will this affect the translation?
     
  21. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    thinking or thought??
     

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