كِتَابُ مُدَرِّسٍ هَذَا

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Ibn Nacer, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    Bonjour,

    I think this expression كِتَابُ المُدَرِّسِ هَذَا is correct but I want to know if this expression is also correct كِتَابُ مُدَرِّسٍ هَذَا ?

    Thank you.

     
  2. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    Arabic and English
    Yes, it's correct. However, the normative case is that haTHaa comes first because it's mubtada'.
     
  3. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    salaam Ibn Nacer,

    Are you trying to go for a meaning of "this book of a teacher's" in the second expression vs. the well-known "this book of the teacher's"?

    If so, it's an interesting question but I don't know the answer. I remember that having هذا should define the object but I don't know if it will apply in this case. Interesting question though...

    By the way: If you did want to express that meaning in a way that is definitely correct (but long-winded) you could say: هذا الكتاب الذي هو لِمدَرِّسٍ ما
     
  4. x514xx New Member

    Egypt
    you can say

    هذا كتاب المدرس ؟
     
  5. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    Thank you. I do not want to make a nominal sentence, I know that "كِتَابُ المُدَرِّسِ هَذَا" means "This book of the teacher" but I ask if the expression كِتَابُ مُدَرِّسٍ هَذَا is correct with the meaning "This book of a teacher."

    Wa 3alaykum salaam. Thank you. Yes.

    But in كِتَابُ مُدَرِّسٍ the word كِتَابُ is indefinite (because the mudhaaf ilayhi is indéfinite). Why use the word ما and the pronoun هو is obligatory?

    Yes but the meaning is different : هذا كتاب المدرس - This is the book of teacher and هذا كتاب مدرس - This is a book of a teacher
     
  6. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    First, let me state that I'm not very sure of the answers I'm about to give. I'd trust them as far as you'd trust a non-native's ear for a language.
    Right. I was trying to get around your restriction of having an indefinite مضاف إليه. The way I see it, even though the مضاف إليه is indefinite, using a demonstrative pronoun for the مضاف makes it [the مضاف] definite. When you say "this book of a teacher", the book is still definite (as far as I know).
    Strictly speaking, it's not necessary but it just emphasizes the indefiniteness of the teacher. So it is as if you are saying "this book of some teacher". You could still say هذا الكتاب الذي هو لمدرسٍ but unless you pronounced the tanween at the end, I suspect you would leave the listener hanging and waiting for a مضاف إليه for "teacher" because مدرس did not have the definite article. So the ما lets him know that you mean "some teacher or other". Of course, this ما is not to be used for every indefinite but I'd say the possessor of an definite object would usually be definite and you should signal that it is indefinite by use of this ما.

    Just to reiterate, grammatically, I don't think it is necessary but it's nice to have.
    Here is a thread that also discusses it.
    That's a tough one. I usually play it safe and insert this هو but in many places I think you can omit it. I'm not exactly sure when you can and when you can't so as I said I usually insert it. At most, its just added emphasis. If you google "هذا الكتاب الذي هو" with the quotes you'll get over a million results.

    Maybe someone more knowledgeable can explain when it should and when it shouldn't be used.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  7. lukebeadgcf

    lukebeadgcf Senior Member

    Cambridge, MA
    American English
    I'm not completely sure, but I don't think you can. The word هذا, when it is not part of a predication, stands in apposition البدل with the noun. In البدل, the nouns must agree in definiteness. Since, as you said, كتاب is considered indefinite in كتاب مدرس, the word هذا, whether inserted before or after كتاب مدرس, will be interpreted as part of a predicate or equational sentence. Therefore, كتاب مدرس هذا must mean "this is a teacher's book," or "a teacher's book is this."
     
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    How about...

    This book of a teacher (whom I know, is excellent)

    [هذا الكتاب لمعلم [ أعرفه ممتاز
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  9. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Your English sentence is ungrammatical...
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Please do enlighten me. I could offer another version..

    This book, belonging to a teacher I know, is excellent.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Upon further reflection, I was wondering if we can compare your construction with the following.

    (kitaabu mudarris-in haadhaa)

    ayyu mat3am-in haadhaa?

    This can be translated as..

    What (kind) of restaurant is this?...Or to bring it in line with your construction..

    This is what kind of a restaurant.

    Your sentence then equates to..

    This is a book of a teacher or This is a teacher's book...just as lukebeadgcf has said in post 7.
     
  12. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Literally هذا الكتاب - الذي لمدرس أعرفه - ممتاز
    Idiomatically هذا الكاب لمدرس أعرفه وهو ممتاز
    What I think you're looking for كتاب المدرس هذا ممتاز seems a bit informal perhaps but is acceptable and in use.
    'This book of the teachert is excellent'

    أي مطعم هذا what [kind of] restaurant is this
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No, the OP was questioning whether "kitaabu mudarrisin haadhaa" was a correct formation to mean "This book of a teacher". It seems that this formation is not correct and so I was asking if "haadhaa_lkitaab li_mu3allim-in/li-mudarris-in" would fit the bill. "kitaabu_lmudarris haadhaa" does not meet this need.
     

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