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وجاء النهي عن إكراه

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Huda, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Would you please me help me translate the following sentence?

    وجاء النهي عن إكراه الإماء على البغاء،
     
  2. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Literally:
    A ban has come on forcing female slaves into prostitution.
     
  3. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    جاء here means "it was mentioned"
     
  4. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    As this is an incomplete sentence, we can only give incomplete translation. :)

    I suggest: forcing female slaves to/into (?) prostitution was banned.
     
  5. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    I believe نهي means forbidding
     
  6. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes, I was just about to edit my previous post. :)
     
  7. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    I considered 'forbid' but chose 'ban' because I did not know the larger context. I also considered 'prohibit.' 'Banning' and 'prohibiting' are more generic terms, and more likely to be used in a (civil) legal context. 'Forbidding' often carries a religious connotation and/or might be used when there is some negative moral aspect to the action or behavior in question.

    Perhaps the difference between banning and forbidding can be likened to the difference between الحظر and الحرم. If I understand them correctly the former is used in more (civil) legal contexts whereas the latter is used in religious contexts (or religious legal contexts).

    So, the most appropriate term may depend on who, or what entity, is declaring النهي.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  8. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Thanks for clarifying these nuances, Josh.
    Yes, the context is religious. It's about a verse from سورة النور، الآية 33 which says:
    وَلاَ تُكْرِهُواْ فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى ٱلْبِغَآءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّناً

    So, may I understand that it's better here to use "forbid"?
    You mean التحريم, right?
     
  9. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Sorry for my late reply. You got my point and you mentioned the right verse from which my original sentence was derived. Thereforeنهى carries a religious connotation as Josh said, but there is a difference between نهي and تحريم. The former means "forbidding".
     
  10. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    It's prohibitted (forbidden) to force servant women into prostitution.
    It's prohibitted (forbidden) to force the female domestics into prostitution.

    Who has slaves nowadays? I think the word الإماء can refer to low wage domestic ladies that work in the homes of wealthy people.

    Also I'm not 100% happy with البغاء = prostitution in this hadith statement, because prostitution is a specific practice. What about the occassional flirtations from an employer who threatens the domestic with expulsion if she doesn't accept his demands for sex? That's not neccessarily prostitution, but very much within the spirit of the above prohibition.
     
  11. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    I feel that the verb 'to ban' implies more strongly that the practice was accepted initially?

    I see no reason not to use 'prohibit', it's the most suitable translation for نهي. The only difference between forbid and prohibit, by the way, is that one is Germanic and the other is Latin
     
  12. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    we're talking about a specific verse, something that happened long time ago. The most suitable translation is slave girls.
    Where is the translation of the verb "جاء" which means "mentioned"
    Please note that the one who wrote the original sentence is commenting on the Quranic verse, that's why he said "جاء"
     
  13. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    May be you're right, but I think there's a difference between the two. When I say وَلاَ تُكْرِهُواْ فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى ٱلْبِغَآءِ which means don't do so and so , this is different from saying حرمت عليكم. The two words, نهى and تحريم are mentioned in Quran., and if you look at any translation of the meanings of the Quran you'll see that نهى is translated into "forbid"
     
  14. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Yes, that is right.

    Yes, thanks for the correction.

    Right, because the Quran is a religious text. The translators were probably aware that 'forbid' would a better translation than 'ban' in terms of a religious prohibition. Perhaps, originally, النهي had religious connotations and/or was used exclusively/most often in religious contexts, but nowadays it seems to have a broader range of uses.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  15. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    I was assuming the OP was using the shariah statement to address a modern context as with emploter/employee relations.
    In that case, yes الإماء is bond maiden, slave girl
     
  16. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Thank you, but composing the whole structure of the sentence is difficult for me because of the word جاء
     
  17. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    It's mentioned in hadeeth statement that forcing slave girls into prostitution is forbidden.
     
  18. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Please check the quoted source: we're talking about a verse from the Qur'an, not a hadith.
    If you need a better wording, you can give us the rest of the sentence. Otherwise, you can omit the جاء part because it's expressed in the passive voice used in the translation: was forbidden.
     
  19. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    ففي هذا التسري – كما يقول الفقهاء -: «استعفاف مالك الأمة.. وتحصين الإماء لكيلا يملن إلى الفجور، وثبوت نسب أولادهن» وأكاد ألمح في التشريع القرآني أمرًا إلهيًّا بالإحصان العام للرجال والنساء، وأحرارًا كانوا أو أرقاء.. ففي سياق التشريع لغض البصر، وحفظ الفروج، جاء التشريع للاستعفاف بالنكاح – الزواج – للجميع.. وجاء النهي عن إكراه الإماء على البغاء، لا بمعنى إجبارهن على الزنى – فهذا داخل في تحريم الزنى، العام للجميع – وإنما بمعنى تركهن دون إحصان واستعفاف بالزواج أو التسري
     
  20. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Thanks for the context. I think we can drop جاء because the Arabic sentence جاء النهي بمعنى كذا لا بمعنى كذا can be worded in a different way in English.

    How about: Forbiding [men] from forcing [their] women slaves to prostitution doesn't refer to forcing them to prostitution -as this was forbidden to all [muslims]- but to leaving them without إحصان واستعفاف through marriage.
     
  21. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    I believe جاء here is used to draw our attention that the following is mentioned in the verse.
     
  22. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    The expression جاء الأمر/النهي بكذا is common in Arabic. But I don't think we have to translate it literally.

    But it's your text, so the choice is yours. :)
     
  23. suma Senior Member

    USA
    English, USA
    With this context in mind, I'd say: "It's mentioned in Islamic texts that it is forbidden to leave bondmaids without any means to sound marriage and thus leaving themselves open to moral corruption and loss of chastity."

    But I'm not clear if you want to translate all of the texts, or you simply want to sum up the gist of the statement on prohibition?

    The fuss about how to translate وجاء النهي عن إكراه maybe I'm not following your point?
    وجاء النهي عن إكراه = compelling such and such has been made forbidden

    "The prohibition against forcinng bondmaids into prostitution does not refer to prostitution as such because this is already clearly forbidden upon slaves or free persons, instead the prohibition is referring to the practice of leaving the bondmaid without any real means to have a sound marriage and thus leaving her open to moral corruption and loss of chastity."
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  24. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    I don't know where did you get Islamic texts, the author is talking about a specific verse, that's why he said جاء. If you believe that it would be more appropriate to omit it, please tell me. First you said "it's mentioned so and so.." then you said وجاء النهي عن إكراه = compelling such and such has been made forbidden. I believe this is contradictory.
    Cherine asked for more context, that's why I gave you the whole paragraph.
     
  25. Huda Senior Member

    arabic-Egypt
    Thanks a million Suma, I appreciate your help.:)
     

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