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وما قتلوه يقينا

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by humblemuslim, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. humblemuslim New Member

    English
    وما قتلوه يقينا


    Can someone who is a native Arabic speaker, knowledgeable in grammar, first of all translate the above text literally (Word by word please). Secondly, give grammar rules or reasoning as to how you translated it if a word has more than one possible meaning such as
    ما.

    I am looking for a strict literal translation to English please. I have a translation, but I want to validate it. Currently someone is arguing that the translation I have contains bias and is incorrect, so this will serve to prove otherwise.

    Regarding the meaning of the word
    ما :

    The other person posted this for the possible meanings for "ma".

    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2009
     
    : qur'an
  2. WINGLESS New Member

    Arabic
    I am not knowledgeable in Arabic grammar ...
    but "ma qatalooh" can be translated into " they did not kill him"

    ma = not
    qatalooh = they killed him
     
  3. humblemuslim New Member

    English
    Thank you.

    Yes this is the translation I have and agree with.

    The individual who disagrees with me is claiming the "ma" is not negating here. He claims that the mood here is "Positive" and continues to highlight this:

    I honestly believe the individual who argues with me knows nothing about the grammar at play here. He continues to mindlessly quote a Arabic to English lexicon without fully explaining his position.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you come to the conclusion that "ma" should be translated as "not". I am sure that since you are a native Arabic speaker it just comes naturally to you and you may not have a grammar rule in mind. Even being an English speaker, I am not well versed in English grammar :D

    I am going to add more context around these words soon. I would do so sooner, but once I show this proof to him I do not want him to claim that the translations expressed here were "biased" as he claims of the translations I have.

    If someone could please justify the translation of "ma" as being "not" I would be most grateful.

    God bless you for your response.

    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2009
  4. MarcB Senior Member

    US English
    This may help while you are waiting for an answer.
     
  5. humblemuslim New Member

    English
    Thank you.

    That is actually the post I found using a Google search that brought me to these forums :D.

    I might have a possible answer after looking at this, but I would like someone to verify that what I say below this point is true (Always):

    If we read the possible meanings for "ma" as present by my opposition:

    So according to this, "ma" negates when placed before a perfect tense verb (Past tense), pronoun, or demonstrative noun.

    In the case of 4:157 the word that follows "ma" is "qatalooh", which means "They killed him". This word is a perfect tense verb (Past tense for kill). Therefore "ma" satisfies the conditions from being used as a negation.

    If we look at the Qur'an 53:2 mentioned in the quote above as an example we see:

    ما ضل صا حبكم و ما غوى

    There are two "ma" in this verse. The first "ma" is followed by a word meaning "He went astray" (Past tense) and the other "ma" is followed by a word meaning "deceived" (Past tense). Both "ma" are considered negating here as well.

    Question though:

    What does this word mean literally? My translation says it means "deceived", but the word for deceive is something different.

    غوى
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2009
  6. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    Arabic and English
    They did not kill him for sure; meaning that they were not definitly positive that they killed him.



    I wouldn't say I'm the grammar wizz, but I'm a native speaker.



    That would not be possible because the two languages work very differently and a word for word translation does not make sense. However, this is the best I can do.

    ma = negative article. It can loosely be translated to "not", "never", or "no" depending on context.
    qataluuhu = qatalu: killed, a verb in the third person past plural masculine. The haa (hu) is what is called "an attached pronoun" refering to him.

    ma is a long subject; there are many uses for ma; but in the context given above you can have only one: ما النافية التي لا عمل لها.


    It's true, there are all these possible meaning of ma; but they don't work here.

    First of all, he is wrong; you NEVER refer to a human with ma although you may refer to a human attribute or charachtaristic with ma. If it was اسم موصول then you should be able to replace it with الذي without affecting the integrety of the sentence + it should refer to غير العاقل and this is not the case; if it was اسم شرط لغير العاقل, then it should 1. be for ghair al-3aakil 2. have two verbs that are مجزوم and 3. you must be able to replace it with مهما;also not the case; if it was استفهامية then you should be able to replace it with أي شيء, not the case either.

    What is the person's claim?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2009
  7. djamal 2008 Senior Member

    arabic
    الغواية: ضد الرشاد
     
  8. humblemuslim New Member

    English
    Thank you very much! To answer your question and show the larger context of why I bring this up, the person argues that the Qur'an verse 4:157 should be translated:


    He is making the outrageous claim that the Qur'an supports the idea that Jesus was crucified. But I am looking at his argument from a language perspective, not a religious one. And he appears to think that the translation of "ma" is a matter of opinion or interpretation, when it is not.

    I welcome any comments or criticisms of his arguments and position, from a language perspective.

    God bless everyone for their responses!

    Thank you all!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  9. djamal 2008 Senior Member

    arabic
    My hunch is that it means " they didn't kill him, it's for sure", and what is the role od yakkinan grammatically; would it be haal or maf3oul mou9lak.
    As for ma it is a preposition not an article.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2009
  10. WINGLESS New Member

    Arabic
    And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “Allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.

    لكن "but" is translated into and
    شُبّه is a verb ,not an adjective modifying them

    differ is replaced by followed , and "NOT" does not exist in the original text.

    الظن " conjecture" is translated into belief.

    the translation is not faithful to the least degree.
     
  11. humblemuslim New Member

    English
    Thank you for your criticisms of his incorrect translation.

    God bless you.
     
  12. WINGLESS New Member

    Arabic
    you're welcome
     

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