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Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by John_Doe, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. John_Doe Senior Member


    I wonder why it should ageru instead of kureru/kudasaru since we're requesting someone to do something for us. What's the difference? In what situations can I use agenasai instead of kudasai?

    Thanks in advance.
  2. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    A rough guide:
    For example, there's a book. Which is when you leave it or when you get it, when using 貸してくれる and 貸してあげる?

    Note that in both cases there are an actor and receiver: you lend it to sb and sb lends it to you. And yes, くれる is used to request sth.

    This post may be insufficient..please add info further)
  3. John_Doe Senior Member

    Ageru is for my giving to someone and kureru is for someone's giving to me. How is it supposed to explain my case? To me, the example violates the rules of using ageru because the speaker takes the viewpoint of the receiver, not the giver. Your post is obviously insufficient for me to understand anything at all, sorry. I wonder if you could elaborate on the topic.

    Btw, dictionaries say that there's such a word as 貸してあげる, which acts as a single unit. It may be the reason that the ageru magic doesn't work here. However, I don't get the difference in using between the plain 貸す and 貸してあげる.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  4. nagoyano Senior Member

    In this case, "ageru" is not an independent word but an additional element of a phrase.
    "Ageru" originally means putting something upwards.
    The upwards movement causes the sense of honorific expression, because noble people usually stay in higher places.
    The sense of honorific expression, then, causes a sense of grace of favour.
    It is not rare that honorific expressions lost their original senses and used in different contexts.
    "貸す kasu" is just a fact of lending-borrowing relationship.
    "貸してあげる kasite-ageru" is a subjective statement from the lender's point of view.
    "I lend (something) to you, because of my special favour to you".
    In this case, "agenru" is an integrated part of "kashiteageru".
  5. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    I know! I just wanted to take a time and I wondered if you know the difference between くれる and あげる.

    According to Weblio, this is 貸して+あげる. あげる is 補助動詞 (22).

    If I (frequency) talk to you (John Doe) like your example as follows,

    I urge/recommend you to lend sb a book. Note that there's one more person whom you John Doe lend it. Moreover, this sounds like I say
    'You should kindly, especially lend him/her a book!'

    If I talk,
    This is OK, and the basic concept and your action (to lend) do not differ from the first one, as you said, that's right. But the important is that this sounds imperative. It doesn't have 'kindly, especially': 'Just do it!'

    This is of course arrogant, a bit vulgar but common in a specific situation like between close friends.

    *If I say to you '貸してよ!', Yes, I'm requesting you. '貸してくれよ!' '貸してくれる?' work as well. See there's no another person―just between us.

    However, remember if I say to you strongly, 'John Doe, 貸してあげなさい!', this is imperative one, too.
    I know you'll think 'You said 貸しなよ!' is imperative!' I know, we should draw the line between which is imperative or which is suggestion/recommendation clearly, but we haven't done so much as you do in English or in Russian―I mean it's flexible, unfixed.
    Not only in your case, the politeness levels, casual/formal levels often make many variations, causing something more complicated.

    So I fully understand what you mean.
  6. Tonky Senior Member

    I hope what written above suffice, but just in case.

    First, you need to distinguish くれる from あげる.
    あげる is to give someone something in general. (but very often the giver is at a higher -or the same- rank than the receiver.)
    くれる is used only when someone gives something to "私に", the speaker or the people belong to the speaker's group.

    • AさんはBさんにパソコンをあげた A gave a pc to B.
    • 私はBさんにパソコンをあげた I gave a pc to B.
    • Aさんは私にパソコンをくれた A gave a pc to me.
    • 息子にパソコンをあげた (I) gave a pc to my son.
    • (私の)息子にパソコンをくれた (Someone, but not I) gave a pc to my son. (beneficial to the speaker's family.)
    • 犬に餌をあげた (Anyone) gave food to the dog.
    • (私の)犬に餌をくれた (Someone, but not I) gave food to MY/OUR dog. (beneficial to the speaker's pet.)

    貸してあげる・貸してくれる too have the same difference.
    • AさんはBさんにパソコンを貸してあげた A lent a pc to B. (A let B use a pc.)
    • 私はBさんにパソコンを貸してあげた I lent a pc to B. (I let B use a pc.)
    • Aさんは私にパソコンを貸してくれた A lent a pc to me. (A let me use a pc.)
    • 息子にパソコンを貸してあげた (I) lent a pc to my son.
    • (私の)息子にパソコンを貸してくれた (Someone, but not I) lent a pc to my son.
    • 犬を散歩に連れて行ってあげた (Anyone) took the dog for a walk (the beneficiary can be the dog or the dog's owner).
    • (私の)犬を散歩に連れて行ってくれた (Someone, but not I) took MY/OUR dog for a walk.

    お姉ちゃん and ひろし are both the mother's children, and they are within the same group.
    Mother is at a higher rank than both children, so she can order お姉ちゃん to lend it to ひろし.
    Mother is in the same group as ひろし as a family, so whatever beneficial to ひろし is considered beneficial to her if it is coming from outside her group, and くれる/ください can happen.
    One exception is ”お父さん、ひろしに貸して(あげて/やって)ください”
    Father is in the same family thus same group, but when mother treats him as a higher rank in the family, she would use ください instead. When mother is stronger than father in that family, it can be あげなさい too.

    In short, you can say ~てくれる only when the beneficiary is the speaker or someone considered to be in the speaker's group, such as family or company. Otherwise, you would need to use ~てあげる instead.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  7. John_Doe Senior Member

    I feel that the more I'm thinking about the whole in-out-group business the more confused I'm getting ) Actually, I think that I grasped it for some extent but ageru + nasai just blows my mind. On top of that, Tonky just came and did the matters more complicated. Just kidding )
    Is kureru only for outsiders? I'll approach it from the other way: Would kashite-kureru make the mother's order ungrammatical or socially improper? 'Oneechan, Hiroshi ni kashite-kure' What if Hiroshi himself would say: 'Oneechan, '(Hiroshi ni) kashite agenasai'?

    I'd much appreciate it if you would answer my annoying questions.
  8. Tonky Senior Member

    Awww :(

    well, take it that "Aに~てあげる" means "to do something to A for A", "~てくれる" means "to do something to me for me". If it is for "my family", it will be "to do something to my family for me."
    あげる is always doing a favor for the the (mentioned) person, but never for "me", くれる is always for "me". (a favor for "my" family is "for me" too.) くれる always shows the speaker's appreciation, unless it's a sarcasm.

    Usually, a mother does try to treat her children the same. So, even if she could have favorism, she would not implicate one of her children belongs to another group like that (as if to say お姉ちゃん is not her family), if you know what I mean.
    This would happen only when Hiroshi is much closer to mother. For example, mother does not treat them equally, like maybe she is お姉ちゃん's step-mother and she is being mean or something. Or maybe sister is being very mean to her brother and mother is angry about that. Unless mother wants to show that she is treating them differently on purpose, she would not say that. (Cinderella's mother might, indeed.)
    However.... (this would most likely confuse you even more and you might hate me), 「お姉ちゃん、ひろしに貸してやってくれない?」or「貸してあげてくれない?」is fine. this indicates お姉ちゃん has a bigger power over ひろし, and yet mother does not put them into different groups, except for showing their power difference, as in, Hiroshi is a weak one, his sister is a strong one, so Oneechan should do a favor for Hiroshi (by やる・あげる) and for mother's sake (by くれる).
    You cannot use "~てあげなさい" for yourself, unless you are saying that as a joke like pretending (or faking) to be someone else.

    Sorry if my English explanation is not very clear to you, but I tried.

    How about this, ~てあげる is always saying that you think the beneficiary should be thankful, while ~てくれる is always saying you are thankful?
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  9. John_Doe Senior Member

    Very deep implications of giving-receiving verbs, indeed.
    So BさんはAに。。。~てあげなさい basically means 'B, do it for A', does it? Now, back to the first topic if you don't mind. Who can I use ~てあげなさい with? I mean if A and B are just my acquaintances, can I say, 'BさんはAに。。。~てあげなさい'? Or does ~てあげなさい imply more intimate relationship with B or even with A?
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  10. Tonky Senior Member

    Well, the thing is that the in-group and out-group can always shift according to the situation.
    e.g. in an office, 社長 is your superior when you are his employee and you are not in the same group as him. However, when an outsider who does not belong to your office comes, 社長 and you (and other colleagues) are in the same group.

    This is confusing. You need to say whom you are talking to, and whom you are doing the favor for.
    to clarify, you would need "speaker", "listener", "the beneficiary", and "the contributor (the one who gives the benefit)" to be precise.
    Maybe give some complete sentences instead?
  11. John_Doe Senior Member

    I'm sorry, Tonky. I cut this part out while editing my post. I'll repeat the changed part:
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  12. Tonky Senior Member

    Sorry, I had opened your post and left for a while and posted a reply to the old one.
    ~てあげなさい is an order. You order someone to do something for him/her/them. (but not for you)
    BさんはAさんに~てあげなさい implies that the speaker is at a higher rank and has a bigger power than both A and B.
    (and A is maybe weaker(less powerful regarding the work to be done) than B, so B should do a favor for A. )
    the speaker >>> B ≧ A

    If A and B are just your acquaintances, you would not order either of them to do something, would you?
    (You of course could, if you were a town mayor or someone important enough to order others something. But people would not usually approve such attitudes, ...unless you are respected enough by all in the community, like the oldest chief of a tribe.)
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013

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