1. The WordReference Forums have moved to new forum software. (Details)

された結果

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by mdbvma, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. mdbvma Senior Member

    Canada, English
    "究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます。"

    Does "結果" in this sentence translate into "after it has been"? Is this sentence saying that "After it has been investigated, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal."
     
  2. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    I am also curious to hear a response as my only encounters with 結果 (when modified by a verb clause) have had to do with past actions where the literal translation "As a result of ..." usually makes sense. In English, it doesn't make sense to talk about the "result" of future events that have not occurred yet, so I am intrigued to see if the Japanese 結果 is different in this regard? Can any native speakers weigh in?
     
  3. Schokolade Senior Member

    England
    Japanese
    Maybe it can be paraphrased as "『究明された結果、違法であるとわかった』ということもあり得ます。", or "究明された結果、違法であると判明(or maybe断定?)した』ということもあり得ます。" ...?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  4. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    Would this not change the translation to "I accept the possibility that after it has been investigated, I may realize/conclude that it is illegal"? If so, I can't understand why it is 『究明された結果、違法であるとわかった』 and not 究明された結果、違法であるとわか

    Does 究明された結果 in the OP's sentence imply that the investigation (究明) will definitely happen (and hence translate to "After it has been investigated" as opposed to something like "If it is investigated")?
     
  5. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    おはよう

    I just wondered why mdbvma asked; it's easy, yes 'as a result of ~'. But I've found that された probably made him wonder.

    In general, 究明した結果 is often. This is when the person who investigated is the speaker. I guess you two have already understood. 究明された結果 sounds like that the investigation was conducted by another different person(s) from the speaker. After (reviewing) the investigation, the speaker has reached that conclusion: the person who is stating that it may be illegal is the speaker.

    Using 究明した always instead of 究明された?Ahh..it depends. Feel like not so critical although you do so. But if you especially want to distinguish what you did and what other persons did, it'd better. If you want to be free from a matter of who did what, 調査の結果 is fine and often.
     
  6. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    Thanks for your contribution, frequency. If we accept that the OP's sentence translates to "After it has been investigated, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal" (or in other words - and I hope I'm not taking liberties in thus paraphrasing - "After the investigation has finished, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal), can we rephrase the OP's sentence (in simpler language that make sense to me :eek:) as:

    究明が終わったら違法であるという可能性を認めます。

    My feeling is that this gives a different meaning from 究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます。 But I am not sure how..?
     
  7. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Ahh..okay okay. In 究明が終わったら違法であるという可能性を認めます。, it says that the speaker will accept anyway after the investigation has finished. This is, in other word, very likely that the investigation definitely proves it to be illegal, isn't it?

    Further, that sentence can be 究明された結果によっては、違法であるということもあり得ます, depending on the context. It may be illegal, depending on the result of the investigation conducted. If so, then, によっては is needed, if possible.
     
  8. Schokolade Senior Member

    England
    Japanese
    (Jfr yes they're different in their structure to begin with. In the former 究明が終わったら modifies 認めます, whereas in the latter 究明された結果 modifies である, not あり得ます.)
     
  9. Schokolade Senior Member

    England
    Japanese
    I meant to say it could mean "It's possible that(=ありえます) we have to conclude that(=ということも/となる場合も/と見なす場合も/と判断する場合も) it's illegal(=これは違法だ) depending on the result of the investigation(=究明の結果によれば)", and I said 「『究明された結果、違法であると分かった』ということもあり得ます」 to mean "It's possible that we may have to "report" to you that (we've found) it's illegal according to the result of the investigation" (cos you need to find it before you report it, you know.) Sorry for the confusion :p


     
  10. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    Yes I think you are right, and I think that "After it has been investigated, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal" also implies that the investigation will definitely prove it to be illegal. If there was any doubt about this, it would have to be: "After it has been investigated, I may (be forced to) accept the possibility that it is illegal". But, if indeed there is no doubt about whether the investigation will prove it to be illegal, it would be redundant to "accept the possibility that it is illegal" - you would have to "accept that it is illegal". However, "After it has been investigated, I will accept that it is illegal" has, I think, a different meaning from "究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます。" So we still haven't found an accurate translation..

    Perhaps some more context for the OP's sentence would help?

    This sentence is easier for me to understand. In this case, would it be accurate to paraphrase as: 究明の結果によって再考する必要はあるかもしれないが、違法であるという可能性があるということは否定できない。The reason I ask is partly because I am not sure of the meaning of ということもあり得ます (which I suspect may be a discussion for another thread :eek:) but it is hard to decipher the OP's sentence without confirming this.

    However, depending on the context, the addition of によっては could change the meaning of the OP's sentence, right?

    I think this confirms that "After it has been investigated, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal" is not an accurate translation of the OP's sentence? I had some trouble understanding your earlier paraphrase, but now that I think I have a better understanding, here's my own effort (excuse the possible Janglish :D):「究明の結果で裁判官たちが「違法である」と断定するかもしれない。」 Would this be accurate?

    In this case I would translate as: "As a result of the investigation, it (whatever the potentially illegal action was) may be judged to be illegal." Not the nicest English, but it gets the meaning across.
     
  11. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    Thanks for the clarification! I am getting closer to understanding, but the OP's sentence would be much harder to understand without the addition of と分かった/と断定した. And I still feel the sentence would be more complete/easier to understand if it were: 「究明された結果、違法であると分かった』と報告(report)することになる (this may be an inappropriate use of ことになる) 可能性がある or else 究明された結果、違法であると断定される可能性がある。 Perhaps "report" in the former is implied, but I would never have been able to guess this.

    I am also intrigued by your inclusion of "we" and "you" - perhaps they are implied in the OP's sentence but it is very hard for a non-native speaker to guess their hidden presence without more context! Does the OP's sentence suggest to you that the writer/"We" is perhaps a newspaper for example? Or if the writer is the subject of 「違法であると分かった」, perhaps this means the writer is also the person(s) carrying out the investigation?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  12. mdbvma Senior Member

    Canada, English
    Sorry about not providing more context. I didn't realize that this was a complicated question. The main reason I was wondering about my proposed translation was because, like Irosa, I wasn't certain how to translate "究明された結果" when it is followed by a clause in future tense, as opposed to the more typical past tense.

    As for context, this person is a Japanese lawyer who, as part of a survey conducted in 2001, is denying that a massacre took place in Nanking in 1937. He says "現在捕虜の処刑をどのように考えるかが一部で議論されていますが、これは当時の国際法に照して純学問的に究明されるべき問題で、虐殺とは関係ないと考えます。究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます。" Therefore, I was considering the translation: "After it has been investigated, I will accept the possibility that it (the execution of POWs) is illegal."
     
  13. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    Thanks for providing this context. I'm a bit out of my depth, and correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the writer is saying that the issue of the execution of POWs needs to be investigated from a purely academic point of view, in the context of the international laws of the time in question. Based on Schokolade's reading, could 「究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます」 mean: "It is possible that such an investigation will reveal it to be illegal"?
     
  14. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    The speaker wants to say the execution is different from massacre. The execution, based on that law, must be investigated well to make sure. (If the execution is proved to be legal, they can really say it's different.) However, it may be illegal. Yes as lrosa did, 'It is possible that such an investigation will reveal it to be illegal.'

    If I add information, now I don't see this 結果 is 'as a result of~ =consequently'. Sorry I'm contradicting to my first mention. I just thought it 'as result of ~' first.
    And if you mdbvma want to keep 結果、I still やっぱり read this one as: (しかし、捕虜の処刑が)究明されて、そしてその結果によっては、違法かもしれません。 However, depending on the result investigated, it (the execution) could be illegal. 結果によっては、 means that the result controls the next step. But ~の結果、provides the actual data and fact to conclude/fix the next step, don't they? I think this case must be よっては、and it's omitted.

    P.S. I add one of examples how I read that sentence: もし究明したら(よく調べたら)、それ*って違法になるかもしれないね!
    *The execution in Nanking, 1937
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  15. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    This is indeed easier to understand. However, I find it interesting that the Japanese sentence can omit と分かる/判明する/と断定する, whereas this is not really possible in English: "It is possible that if such an investigation is carried out, it (the execution of POW's) will be illegal" does not make sense. It needs to be: "It is possible that if such an investigation is carried out, it will be shown/revealed/proved to be illegal."
     
  16. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    分かる、判明する、断定する、判定する、find, judge, show, reveal, prove...we have too many words to describe these things. As you said before, we need another thread. In particular, these Japanese words have gaps more or less between them. But at least I can say that when you're talking about legality/illegality, we often use 合法である・違法である. How is it? It's legal/illegal.
     
  17. mdbvma Senior Member

    Canada, English
    Thank you for your help. I'll take frequency's advice and assume that there was supposed to be a "によっては" between "究明された結果" and "違法である", and translate it as "depending on the result of the investigation."
     
  18. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    どういたしまして。おつかれさん!

    ここのところずっとこの質問が頭にあって、どうして「によって」を省いているのかな、と思ってたんだ。でもよく考えてみると、これって60年、またはそれ以上昔の日本語だね?当時は「結果によっては」という言い方がなかったか、あまり言わなかったのかもしれないなと思ったよ。わからないけどね!

    この質問と加えてくれたcontextには、面白いネタ(topic)がまだいっぱいあるよ。同じように、どうして「純学問的に」という言い方をするんだろう、と思ってたけど、当時はこういう言い方をしていたのかもね。これは must be investigated without (any) bias の意味もあるように感じるよ。もちろん「バイアスをかけないで」という言い方は当時にはないからね。この言葉ってすごく便利で、私も好きだよ。

    it's easyと言ってしまった私にとても勉強になったよ笑 他にもあったら答えるよ!
     
  19. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    ええっ、これは2001年にある弁護士(注意: 原語lawyerは、行政書士などの可能性もある)が南京大虐殺に関して述べたコメントの一部ですよね?

    現代語で、「結果」が接続詞的に用いられることはそれほどめずらしくはありません。つまり「によっては」などをとらずに、そのまま条件文の従属節になることができます。lrosaさんは#2で「英語のresultは未来の結果を示せない」という旨述べていますが、未来完了が未来の結果を表すことができることとどう関係するのか、ちょっと不思議に思います。

    日本語の場合は時制は相対的です。つまり、話し手が、絶対的な時間尺度と話線を切り離して、ある程度自由に今現在を決めることができます。この文では、話し手は「捕虜の処刑に関する純学問的な究明」なる作業はまだ行われていないという前提で論じています。仮にそれが行われたなら、なんらかの結果が出るのが自然で、「合法であった」または「違法であった」という結果がでることでしょう。いずれにせよ、究明が終わるまでは結論はないので、「された結果」という過去の形が使われています。話し手の関心は合法か違法かの結論なので、その前提となる究明の作業は相対的に過去のことなのです。

    さて、「あり得ます」という言い方は論理的な可能性に言及する機能があります。その意味では話し手自身の立場は全く表明されていません。当然のことですが実際の用例は異なり、話し手が希望したり予測したりすることを客観性を装って伝えることに大いに活用されます。frequencyさんが指摘していますが、この文章にはいくつか仕掛けがあり、「純学問的」とか「あり得ます」のようなややこしい保留条件を読んでやっとたどり着くのが、「捕虜の処刑が違法である可能性」なのです。みんなが怒っていることに比べたら極めて軽微なことの違法性に焦点を当てているわけです。あからさまな藁人形論法を使ってお上品に喧嘩を売る文章であると判断できます。
     
  20. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    It was my fault in carrying out too much guesswork before the context became clear, but from a translation point of view, I was conscious that ーた結果 can often be satisfactorily translated as "as a result of..." when it refers to past actions: e.g. 究明された結果違法であると判明した = "As a result of being investigated, it proved to be illegal" (However :warn:, "Upon being/When it was investigated, it proved to be illegal" is more natural). However, "As a result of it being investigated, I will accept the possibility that it is illegal" does not make sense (or at least it is not idiomatic), hence my uncertainty as to how to translate ーた結果 in relation to future events.

    I think now that, rather than directly translating 結果 as "result", ーた結果 needs to be considered as a conjunction which can be used to create a subordinate clause (as explained by Flaminius). The fact that tense in Japanese is relative is also important. With this fact in mind (and not meaning to hijack the thread :eek:), I have some questions. Can we say for example:

    私はまだ高校生で、両親の家で住んでいるが、大学を卒業し私はどこに住んでいるだろう? to mean "When I have graduated from college, I wonder where I will live."

    or

    日本に滞在した結果日本語が話せるようになるかもしれない to mean "When/If I stay in Japan, I may learn to speak Japanese."

    If my understanding is correct, then could we translate 究明された結果違法であるということもあり得ます (in this context) as "When/If such an investigation is carried out, it (the execution) may prove to have been illegal."
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  21. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    I didn't know. I didn't have any information on it (I'm not going to blame mbdvma).

    Then, more interesting that this material just showed that I read it as old as written or spoken about 60 years ago due to its redundancy, unnatural, and roundabout expression, especially in 純学問的に、であるということもあり得ます、and された. But in legal discussion, direct and clear statements wouldn't be better to get favourable results you want.

    lrosa, I've read された as passive first (and I still do so). I just sensed された is a distance the speaker wants to make like, somebody may investigate someday, somewhere. But if any investigation has already started but yet to finish, yes it'd be 'When it has finished...', when you especially focus on its completion..sorry this explanation is a little insufficient. And I add examples,
    c.f.
    A policeman visited you and said,
    'As a result of investigation, I arrest you!'
    or
    'Depending on the result of investigation, I may arrest you!'

    We had to think and decide which the execution case would be. And we added something missing in the Japanese sentence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013

Share This Page