たきゃ

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by ihitokage, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Czech
    こんにちは

    I am watching anime 進撃の巨人 and I heard this sentence.

    やりたけ,やれ - If you want to, do it.

    My question is about that たけ ending. Is it something like conditional form of たい ending (like to want to do something)?
    I would say it like this あなたはやりたいなら、やれ。

    Could you please explain?
     
  2. animelover Senior Member

    Eastern Germany
    Deutsch
    Are you certain it was not やりたけりゃ or やりたきゃ, both being contractions of やりたければ (やる+たい+ば)?
     
  3. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    Isn't it やるだけやれ or やれるだけやれ?
    だけ here means extent, limit or range.
    Do all you want/should/can do. (= Do your best.)

    Here is a detailed explanation by 庭三郎.

    ---

    By the way, やる seems to be a special verb that has many idiomatic usages. It's often used where potential verbs, unintentional verbs or adjectives are often used. e.g.
    やるだけ vs やれるだけ
    やるね vs できるね、すごいね
    よくやった vs よくできた

    I don't know if there is any different between やるだけ and やれるだけ. It seems that やるだけ is more idiomatic.
     
  4. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Czech
    well I wanted to send you the sentence recorded from the episode but my post was deleted
    but I still think that he said "Yaritake, yare" やりたけやれ
    I can send you PM if anybody would be so kind to help me
     
  5. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    If you think you hear やりたけ, the actual Japanese is more than likely やりたきゃ (casual < yaritakerya < yaritakereba; if someone wants to do [something]).

    きゃ is a palatalised か, meaning the place of articulation for the palatalised consonant is closer to the palate than that for the non-palatalised one. For [k], which is a velar consonant, palatalisation means that the place of articulation is more to the front.

    If the relative "frontness" cannot be heard on the consonant, it can be heard on the vowel, /a/ yielding /e/. The vowel /a/ is more frontal than /e/. This may be the reason, ihitokage, that you heard /ke/ while /kya/ is meant.
     
  6. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Czech
    Many thanks. It is really weird haha. I know that grammar you described but just somehow cannot hear that in the sentence.
    And sorry for the deleted posts ^^'
     
  7. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    There is a mistake in my #5. The vowel /e/ is more frontal than /a/. Palatalisation of /k/ may be interpreted as shifting the /a/ frontward (closer to the lips) to /e/.

    In my previous post, the vowels were in the reverse order. Sorry for the mix-up.

    I am personally not a big fan of copying the whole post in order just to show whom you are replying to. This time I hate it because I have to see my mistake twice! ;)
     
  8. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Czech
    Alright, sorry I shortened it this time. *cough*
    どうもありがとうございました

    have to get the feeling for it
     
  9. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    こんにちは、皆さん。

    俺も『進撃を巨人』を見ていて、あのエピソードを見たばかりです。日本語字幕とそれを見て、animelover と Flaminius が言ったことが正しいことを確認できますよ。「やりたきゃやれ」と言いました。面白いことですね~. ありがとう、Flaminius, animelover!

    -K
     
  10. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    あのう、簡単な質問であります:

    If ければ shortens to けりゃ and further still to きゃ, does this happen for the other ば-form conditionals? E.g.

    食べれば -> 食べりゃ
    待てば -> 待ちゃ
    学生であれば -> 学生じゃ

    そして、それなら、is it always common to contract words with a え-sound syllable followed by an あ-sound syllable?
    For instance, would "もう鉛筆をあげた!" become "もうえんぴつをあぎゃ!"?

    ありがとう、皆さん!
    -K
     
  11. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    The sound shift I described is not a regular occurrence. All the three in the list below are extant forms but not all of them are perceived like たきゃ.
    食べりゃ and 待ちゃ (variant forms are 食べりゃあ and 待ちゃあ) are perceived of as a casual speech within the standard language. I have an impression that 待ちゃあ is more colloquial than others. Even these forms are different in terms of frequency, I don't have data to back up my impressions. At any rate, the more often you mix -rya conditionals in your speech, the more shitamachi-like you sound. A not so accurate description of shitamachi is that it is a working class district in Tokyo.

    学生じゃ is not the end result of 学生であれば but *学生であ (an ancestor of 学生である and 学生だ). It is dialectal. The progenitor of であ, an copular expression, is だ in the standard language. A more casual equivalent of 学生であれば is 学生なら.

    "もうえんぴつをあぎゃ!" does not exist. It's not that general. The change I am certain to exit is reba -> rya.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  12. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    That's good to know. It definitely makes learning this new construction/contraction simpler.


    This is interesting. The assumption that I made was that たきゃ also fell into the category of casual speech. Is this not the case? I'd also assumed that the point of talking this way was to sound 下町的.

    And as a point of interest, I assumed that these contractions are more casual than the れば/(-え)ば conditional. And if this is true, are they more casual than なら as well?


    That's my mistake. I meant to say: 学生であれば -> 学生でありゃ. Though なら might be preferred, does this でありゃ contraction exist as well?

    ありがとう!!
    -K
     
  13. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Yes. たきゃ is also casual. While there may be items that are less often palatalised, just a few occurrences of palatalised conditionals for any verbs does not make the speaker sounding 下町的. Even in purely shitamachi speech, I bet there are a lot of items for which palatalisation sounds funny.

    なら introduces extra aspects besides casual vs. formal. Conditionals that bear なら is often marked for lower possibilities. [If you are really going to dine, etc.]


    It's very rare, if not downright impossible. ありゃ is usually used for the existential verb aru. あれだけトマトがありゃあ、プール一杯分のトマトソースができるじゃないか。
     
  14. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    Is this to say that palatalization in general makes a person sound 下町的? Is this similar to how Americans change "-ing" to "-in'" ("I'm cooking food" vs "I'm cookin' food")?


    I think this was just my interpretation of what you meant when you said, "A more casual equivalent of 学生であれば is 学生なら". I was thinking that you meant なら is more casual than ば, when you were simply saying that [名詞]なら is more casual than [名詞]であれば. Right?


    ww, I can't find a meaning for プールー杯分 anywhere, lol. But I do understand the (が)あれば -> (が)ありゃ "reduction".

    ありがとう、
    -K
     

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