コーヒー は 飲む

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by detewe89, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    皆さんこんにちは :)

    「元気」の教科書で次の例文を見たんです:

    紅茶なら飲みましたが、コーヒー飲みませんでした。

    「コーヒーを飲む」でも大丈夫ですか。どうして「~は飲む」はいいですか。

    ありがとうね
    ダニ
     
  2. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    助詞の「は」は対象するために使ったでしょうね。
    紅茶を飲んだ〇 → コーヒーを飲まなかったX

    コーヒーを飲んだら、助詞の「も」を書いたほうがいいです。

    「紅茶を飲みました。コーヒーも飲みました。」


    勉強になったかどうか分かりませんが・・><
    ヤタル~

    (日本語が間違ったらすみませんorz)
     
  3. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    これは何で間違っていますか。
     
  4. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    間違っていませんが、否定です。

    〇 → X
    飲んだ → 飲まなかった

    こういう風のほうが分かりやすいみたいですけど^^;
     
  5. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    ありがとう、ヤタルさん ^.^

    しかし、この「は」を使い方は正則か誤字ですか。
     
  6. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    Das Partikel は ist Partikel der Kontrast hier :v (あまり上手じゃありませんけど、ドイツ語で教えてみます・・w)
    Wenn Sie gebrauchen を, dann klingt der Satz unnatürlich für mich.

    Zum Beispiel,
    A「私はサラダとチキンフライを食べました。あなたは?」 (Ich aß einen Salat und gebratenes Huhn. Und Sie?)
    B「私もサラダ食べましたが、チキンフライたべませんでした。」 (Ich aß auch einen Salat, aber keinen gebratenes Huhn.)

    「チキンフライをたべませんでした。」allein ist perfekt, aber mit Kontrast (サラダ〇 チキンフライX) schreiben Sie besser は an stelle von を.


    (日本語のほうが分かりやすければ、言ってください><)
     
  7. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    Super, danke Dir für die Info!!
    Jetzt habe ich es verstanden :)

    Ich bin noch nicht soo gut in Japanisch, und die Verwendung von は als Kontrastierung kenne ich noch kaum.

    - Daniel
     
  8. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    おっヤタル、苦戦してるなw

    コーヒーに関しては、(私は)飲みませんでした。コーヒーについては、(私は)飲みませんでした。

    It's spotlighting the coffee and is different from は that is added to its subject.

    コーヒーを飲みませんでした:大きな間違いじゃないし、ほとんどOKと言いたい。でもどっちがより良いかというと、かなあ。
     
  9. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    分かりました、ありがとうfrequencyさん

    I don't know much about the special use of particles.
    But would it also be possible to use が to highlight the topic like 「コーヒーが飲みません」 ? Or is this only possible in connection with the potential verb form? (飲める)
     
  10. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    I'm going to talk about が. Don't mix it with は and を.

    Yes, が highlights something. 私がコーヒーを飲みました。It is highlighting the person who did that. Who? 'I' did. Or, this could be 'The person who drank coffee is I'. 雨が降っています。What is falling? Rain. Guess how does コーヒーが飲みません sound? If we're strictly follow the grammar, coffee has the mouth and is not going to drink something.

    Note that the subject is (usually) on the left of が and its verb. コーヒーを飲みました、私が。is OK, too, but this is case-by-case according to the flow of a conversation. More natural is 私がコーヒーを飲みました。
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  11. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    In most cases you'll see が、 it will be subject particle. Expressing a subject in Japanese language gives it a slight emphasis, as frequency said, since Japanese often omit what is considered logical. 「私が」 (I etc.) isn't often added, nor is 「彼が」 (He etc.). For instance, if you'd tell a Japanese person 「きのう、お茶(ちゃ)を飲みました。」 they would assume it was you who drank the tea anyway. You wouldn't have to explicitly state that it is. BUT, in these cases が is not used to replace を, it's just が in its general use as subject marker.

    On the other hand, however!~ (And this may be something you have encountered and the reason why you're having trouble, I don't know.) There are cases you can replace を by が to highlight an element. This is the case in volitionary expressions. And if you don't know what those are, look at the following example:

    「水(みず)を飲みたいです。」
    「水(みず)が飲みたいです。」
    Both mean "I want to drink water." In the first sentence however, you could say that if you're offered something else instead, you wouldn't mind much. In the second case, you want especially water, not tea or cola. The が indicates the water is the important element you "want", not just the general action of drinking.
     
  12. detewe89

    detewe89 Junior Member

    Germany (BW)
    German
    Thanks to both for the excellent explications :) I think particles is something we could talk hours about, I think I have to just get used to it

    My resumé of this is that が usually marks the subject, the guy who "acts" himself in the sentence.
    So generally, I can shift

    は -> が
    を -> は

    to highlight things, is this "correct" (except exemptions of course)?
     
  13. jamesh625 Senior Member

    Sydney, Australia
    English-Australia
    私の個人的な意見なんだけど・・・

    この例文で使った「は」は対比を表す。この文を言った人は多分いつでも紅茶を飲むなんだけど、コーヒーはいやで全然飲まないよね。
    つまり、一般的にコーヒーを飲まない。簡単にいうと、「は」はこの妙な違いを表す。スピーカーはこういうコントラストを表現したかったと思う。
    通じるかな?

    他例:
    好きだけど、牛肉好きじゃない。  ←この例文には、「は」はスピーカーの優先と、スピーカーに大切なコントラスト・違い、を表すだろう。

    梅雨には、雨は降るが、冬には、雪は降る。 ←また、この二つの「は」はこういう違いを強める。

    お手伝いになったかな?笑
     
  14. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    jamesh625, そう、でもこのdetewe89の場合は、「飲んだ」というあきらかな過去があるので、過去の本当の出来事を表すよ
    (昨日、おととい、こないだ and more) (その時)紅茶を飲んだけどコーヒーは飲まなかった。

    detewe89, according to my old 'experience' of German, は、が is nom. を is acc. Your case は in コーヒーを飲まなかった is probably dat, or works like dat. But I'M NOT SURE! Be sure to check!
    And I can't say は->が. If you do, it's better は vs が.
     
  15. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    The way you want to put it with the arrows, I think it would be like this,
    が 
    → は
    を → は


    Since the concept "topic" has more emphasis on it than the subject / object of a sentence. は can in a lot of cases be translated with "as for", "concerning" or "regarding" (German I think would "bezüglich" or "etwa", correct me if I'm wrong).

    Examples:

    太郎くん コーヒー 飲みました。 Tarō drank coffee.
    太郎くん コーヒー 飲みました。 As for Tarō, he drank coffee. (Other people might have drunk tea. ← Hidden contrast~)
    コーヒー 太郎くん 飲みました。 As for the coffee, Tarō drank it. (Oh my, Tarō dared to touch that coffee!)
    コーヒー 飲みました。 He drank coffee. (If you were talking about Tarō, it's assumed he's still the subject.)

    ~は~が-construction:
    私が コーヒーが 好きです。 I like coffee. (← Doesn't this one sound a bit unnatural to use in a Japanese conversation? Because it sounds weird to me.)
     コーヒー 好きです。 I like coffee.
    コーヒー 私 好きです。 It is coffee that I like. (Here the は for 私 changes into が because there can only be ONE topic in the sentence.)

    And yeah, it can indeed get slightly confusing when both を and が change into は:
    は 食べました。 (Did I eat fish? Or did the fish eat? I think that's like a problem similar to the German "Maria hat gesagt, daß sie die Tanten getroffen haben." where I'm utterly confused who met whom.)
    In these cases, context is a life-saver.

    Luckily all other particles (に、で、・・・) stay nicely in there place, so you can just add the は behind them.
    山田さん 鈴木さん 会いました。 As for Yamada, Suzuki met him/her.


    So in short:

    (object)
     → は(topic/contrast)
    (object of volition) → (you want this) → (topic/contrast - it will be yours, no matter what)

    (subject) → は(topic/contrast)
    (any other function) → (topic/contrast)



    PS: I usually remember the two functions (topic and contrast) by considering topic as a sort of contrast as well. It's like an implied 'That, and not all the other things' or 'Him/her, and not all the other people'.

    PPS: I type so slow/so much that WordReference logs me out by the time I can post >:
     
  16. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    ヤタル、if you summary up, do you know how the things all you did in the post are called?
     
  17. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    @frequency: 文法的な用語といいますと? Because some I know in Japanese, but other only in English/Dutch.
     
  18. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    My friend used to say that the difference of は and が is similar to that of a/an, the. But は/が is difficult and we might have some exceptions; は/が wouldn't perfectly match up with English articles, though.
     
  19. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    If you compare it with English articles, it would be more like the difference between "a/an" (indefinite article) and "the" (definite article). Most western languages have this (German: ein vs. der, French: un vs. le, Dutch: een vs. de).

    The indefinite article would then be が, while the definite would be は. In this case the following example is often used:
    猫が テーブルの下に います。
    猫は テーブルの下に います。

    In the first, you could say "There's a cat under the table." / "A cat is under the table."
    Both in Japanese and in English, the cat in this sentence is not necessarily a specific cat. It's just any cat. More important is that it's under the table.

    In the second, you could say "The cat is under the table."
    Both in Japanese and in English, you're now talking about one specific cat. It could for instance be answer to the question 「猫はどこにいますか?」
     
  20. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    猫はどこにいますか?
    ―猫はテーブルの下にいます。
    This is more natural than selecting が.

    But 雨が降っていますか?
    ―はい、雨が降っています。
    In this case, we don't say はい、雨は降っています。I won't be able to explain the difference in these two cases forever. Perhaps, they may relate to a 'Where' form and a 'is S doing' form, but I'm not sure. Moreover, in the second case, 雨は降っていますか?is not a significant error: both are OK. That's a really trouble, and it's very difficult to explain は/が perfectly.
     
  21. Yatalu

    Yatalu Junior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch (Flanders)
    I guess I had better used かぎ or so instead of ねこ xD since usually cats aren't randomly in your house.

    I think in the case of 雨 (rain) it's rather obvious, since if you know rain is coming down, it doesn't matter what rain. In the case of 雨 it's probably used in contrast with something like snow or hail. Like if by the end of February, after a week of snow, you ask the friend who is standing at the window if it's rain falling down. Something like,

    私 「先週より少し暖かくなったそうね・・・今、雨は降っているの?」
    友達「まだだよ・・もう雪は降ってる。」
     
  22. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    ヤタル、sorry it's too complicated. If you want to know, not snow or hail, if rain is falling there now, you have to pinpoint it using が: 今、(雪でもなくみぞれでもなく、)雨が降っているの?
    But selecting は in this case is not a big problem because we understand. Actually many people would say 雨は降っているの? in your case above.

    あぁ~難しいことを考えて脳味噌が疲れたのでまた明日ね=3
     
  23. Wishfull Senior Member

    jp
    は is a particle, and its most popular function is as "a subject indicating particle" as well as が.
    However は has another function as "a emphasizing distinction particle." In this case, は indicates a subject or an object.

    I drank tea, but as for coffee, I didn't.
    紅茶なら飲みましたが、コーヒー飲みませんでした。

    This example sentence is a typical one.
    コーヒー is apparently an object. So you should choose を or は, not が.
    The speaker should emphasize the difference コーヒー from 紅茶.
    So he/she should use は instead of を in this context.

    If you say, 紅茶なら飲みましたが、コーヒーを飲みませんでした, you are not wrong. It makes sense. It is correct grammatically because you choose the object indicating particle, を.
    However, コーヒーは飲みませんでした sounds more natural, and it is more correct grammatically.
    Because the speaker tried to make comparison between coffee and tea.

    And you should learn that は is to be used in this context.
     

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