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Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by 涼宮, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Good evening! :)

    I can't understand well this sentence: 你对于我们在世上的这个严肃、肯定最后的一刻,认真地考虑过没有?. The bolded parts are the ones causing me trouble. This line belongs to a fairy tale called 最后的一天. It begins as: 我们一生的日子中最神圣的一天,是我们死去的那一天。这是最后的一天——神圣的、伟大的、转变的一天。 For some reason I can't make sense out of the sentence. What is 和 doing there? I only knew its usage as 'and' between nouns; and what does exactly that sentence say?:confused:

    Thank you in advance!
  2. BODYholic Senior Member

    Chinese Cantonese
    The "" is not related to "对于" in your sentence.

    1. 严肃、肯定最后的一刻 = 严肃的一刻 + 肯定的一刻 + 最后的一刻.
    But it can also be understood as 严肃的最后的一刻 + 肯定的最后的一刻.
    The former was interpreted based on the grammar structure, and the latter came from logical deduction.
    In both case, the "" serves as a conjunction.

    2. Would it be easier for you to understand "对于", if I simplified the sentence?

    你 / 对于 / 我们在世上 (blah blah blah),(blah )考虑过吗?

    Also, one of the alternate ways to express the sentence without using "对于" is, 你 / 认真地考虑过 / 我们在世上的这个严肃、肯定最后的一刻吗?
  3. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Mandarin 國語
    和 is a giveaway that the article is a translation from a foreign language, an awkward, ineloquent translation that puts off even native speakers. Apparently, it came from On Judgment Day, Hans Christian Andrsen (1805–1875, Danish poet): "The most solemn of all the days of our life is the day we die. It is judgment day, the great sacred day of transfiguration. Have you really seriously given a fleeting thought to that grave and mighty last hour we shall spend on earth?" (http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/OnJudgmentDay_e.html).

    grave and mighty last hour = 严肃、肯定最后的一刻 ==> bad translation, bad!!!
  4. zhg Senior Member

    Maybe it's easier to understand the sentence by breaking it up into a dialogue.

    As Skatingbc pointed out ,the poet is Danish.We don't know if it was a direct translation from Danish to Chinese or it had been translated from Danish to English and then to Chinese, So we can't tell whether it's a good piece of work or not. But we're able to help you with the Chinese here. 和 is grammatically correct here.
    对于 introduced the object of 考虑 .You can re-write the sentence like BODYholic did in post#2. 肯定 is the most difficult part to get here.It means the "positive" aspect of this moment that is the Judgment Day. I think its meaning is similar to "事物肯定的一面" as the opposite of “事物否定的一面” in philosophy.
  5. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Mandarin 國語
    前面后面的颜色不一样 How many colors? At least two.
    最初最后的印象 First and last impressions
    友好美丽的女人 The place is staffed by friendly, beautiful women (women who are both friendly and beautiful).
    友好美丽的女人 The place is staffed by friendly women and beautiful women.
    严肃、肯定最后的一刻 = 严肃的一刻 + 肯定的一刻 + 最后的一刻. So, are we talking about different moments in life? To avoid ambiguity, one could say "严肃、必然的最后一刻" without the coordinator . And what is "肯定的一刻" anyway? Does it mean "a sure moment" 必然的一刻 (something that definitely will happen), "a positive moment" 正面的一刻, or "an affirmative moment" (a moment that confirms one's belief)?
    (严肃、肯定)的(最后一刻) = 4 characters + 的 + 4 characters ==> balanced.
    (严肃、肯定和最后)的(一刻) = 7 characters + 的 + 2 characters ==> a front-loaded, awkward noun phrase.
    神圣的、伟大的、转变的一天 (3 的s, without a good reason for redundancy) vs. 神圣、伟大、转变的一天 (concise).

    The Chinese translation is plagued with ambiguity and redundancy. I would not recommend it for language learners.

    Indeed, the sentence could have gone without 对于. Another evidence that shows the Chinese translation is full of "blah blah blah".
    Good guess, but it is not what the original Danish text says: "[FONT=&amp]denne mægtige, visse, sidste time her på Jorden"[/FONT] literally "[FONT=&amp]this mighty, certain, last hour on earth[/FONT]". So the correct answer is 必然的一刻 "a sure moment". What a surprise, isn't it?
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  6. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Thank you very much everybody, you helped me a lot! I didn't know it wasn't that good a Mandarin translation. I guess then I'll pick another reading before trying to read this one again. :D
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)
    Although Skatinginbc was saying it's not a good translation but that is just a one-person opinion. Skatinginbc said it was not a good translation because he thought that it was translated from the English "that grave and mighty last hour we shall spend on earth" (post #3) but the Chinese version is more likely to have been translated from Danish, which is a better match (post #5):
    "this mighty, certain, last hour on earth" = 这个严肃、肯定和最后的一刻.

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