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到...去 / 到...去了

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by xiaolijie, Apr 23, 2014.

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  1. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    我想问中国朋友一个对你们比较简单的问题。下面的四个句子,都对吗?

    1.
    昨天我到伦敦去。
    早晨八点钟出发,晚上十点才回来,整整忙了一天。

    2.
    昨天我到伦敦去了。
    早晨八点钟出发,晚上十点才回来,整整忙了一天。

    3.
    昨天星期天,我吃了早饭就到山上去。
    我八点出发,十点就到了。

    4.
    昨天星期天,我吃了早饭就到山上去了。
    我八点出发,十点就到了。


    谢谢!:)
     
  2. 枫十二 Senior Member

    Mandarin
    I think 2,4 are better. But 1,3 is also right.

    了 has to do with the accomplishment of something.-----this understanding is good enough. I got it:

    If you want to express the meaning of accomplishment,
    我昨天到伦敦去了。Better than 我昨天到伦敦去。
    And
    A: I will go to London tomorrow.
    B: Good luck!
    我明天要到伦敦去。Better than 我明天要到伦敦去了。

    However, a problem comes:
    我明天要到伦敦去了 actually has another meaning.
    A: Can you come to my party tomorrow.
    B: I’m sorry,I will go to London tomorrow.

    你明天能参加我的聚会吗?
    对不起,我明天要到伦敦去了。
    了here means I am sorry or It’s a pity. (It’s also means accomplishment. I have already decided to go to London tomorrow.)

    Hope this will help.
     
  3. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Thank you, feng12! :)

    I understand the additional points you made but since there are many aspects of 了, let's restrict ourselves to the 4 sentences in the contexts provided. I know that 了 is good in those sentences, but I really want to know if it can be omitted in those same sentences.
     
  4. 枫十二 Senior Member

    Mandarin
    As for me, omitting it sounds a little uncomfortable.I will add 了 to it automatically.:)
     
  5. lake2 New Member

    chinese
    The difference of omitting 了:
    1.昨天我到伦敦去。
    I went to London yesterday.

    2.
    昨天我到伦敦了。
    I have gone to London (yesterday).
     
  6. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    All these sentences are grammatical, I think.
    It seems that 到...去 is not exactly the same as 去... I tend to add 了 after 到…去. Maybe it's just my personal preference.

    And I don't tend to put 了 at the end of the sentence when telling a long story. But it depends on the context e.g. when you are asked “where were you yesterday?”, I will put ...去了 at the end of the sentence.

    Maybe “去了” is a single unit.
     
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Thank you all for replying. I think I understand what everyone has said, except this :))):
    But in your correction, I don't see you adding any 了 after 到…去 at all. Can you try again? I'm intrigued to know your preference.
     
  8. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    The difference between {verb 了 object} {verb object 了} and {verb object} is subtle. If the reference time, that is the time you are currently talking about, is “3 pm”,
    if you say {verb 了 object}, you will continue with something that happens after this event. (e.g. at 3:30 pm)
    if you say {verb object 了}, you will continue with something that happens after 3 pm.
    if you say {verb object}, you will continue with something that happens during it. (e.g. at 3:05 pm)

    I think this distinction between {verb 了 object} and {verb object 了} is not strict and they are interchangeable to some extent. And as you said, there are many aspects of 了. There are at least four things together that make it hard to make a comparison.
    1. whether to use 了 or not
    2. the function of sentence final 了
    3. when the structure verb...去 is preferred
    4. 就 is often used with 了

    Intuitively, if it appears in a dialogue, e.g.
    My preference is: 我昨天到到伦敦去了 = 我昨天去伦敦了 > 我昨天去了伦敦 > 我昨天去伦敦 > 我昨天到伦敦去

    If it's not followed by a long narration, I won't use “我昨天去伦敦” or “我昨天到伦敦去”.

    If it appears in the middle of the narration, e.g. in a diary, my preference is:
    After all, all your sentences don't sound wrong to me.

    The reason I use “了” in “今天我去了伦敦” is because the next sentence “早晨八点钟出发...” seems to be a paraphrase or a more detailed description of the first one. It resets the reference time. In this case, the first sentence sounds like a summary. If the next sentence is “在路上我遇到了Skatinginbc”, I might use “昨天我去伦敦”, too.

    To answer the question “昨天你到哪去了?” I prefer “昨天我去伦敦了/到伦敦去了”, which is relevant to the situation (不在家) we are currently talking about. But I use “昨天我去了伦敦” too. The relation is implied.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  9. Lucia_zwl

    Lucia_zwl Senior Member

    Sentences #2 and #4 sound quite natural to me, and I think it does make a slight difference if you omit 了.
    I would say:
    1. 昨天我到伦敦去开会。早晨……
    3. 昨天星期天,我吃了早饭就到山上去拍照。我……
     
  10. 枫十二 Senior Member

    Mandarin
    I think this is a very good point.

    and just for me,昨天我到伦敦去了 also has the function of summary.
    昨天我去伦敦/昨天我到伦敦去在路上遇到了Skatinginbc.------emphasize only one thing.
    昨天我去了伦敦/昨天我到伦敦去了早晨八点钟出发,晚上十点才回来,整整忙了一天。-----summery (tell the whole story happened in London yesterday.)

    how do you guys think about this?
     
  11. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    So you would add an additional verb to avoid the trailing 去?

    Maybe we should say it's not that “昨天我到伦敦去了” or “昨天我去了伦敦” has the function of summary, but that the sentences following it sound like details.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  12. Testing1234567 Senior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    I agree with you that it would mean that something is following if you omit 了.
     
  13. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Thank you everyone. I keep telling myself not to dig into the intricacy of 了 but then I keep forgetting :rolleyes:

    Anyway, from what Lucia's saying:
    I guess that without 了 or something else at the end, the sentences sound incomplete (as in #1 and #3). Am I correct?

    1.
    昨天我到伦敦去。
    早晨八点钟出发,晚上十点才回来,整整忙了一天。

    3.
    昨天星期天,我吃了早饭就到山上去。
    我八点出发,十点就到了。
     
  14. Testing1234567 Senior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    对,这跟我想的一模一样。
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  15. Lucia_zwl

    Lucia_zwl Senior Member

    Yes!:)
     
  16. 枫十二 Senior Member

    Mandarin
    yes,too
     
  17. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    "VP + 去"結構主要有兩個功能:
    1. 強調「離開此地」, for instance, 「我吃了早饭就到山上去, 給你一個清靜。」「別在這裡白費功夫了, 咱們回家去。」「官府搜得緊,大夥兒不如上梁山去。」 杜甫: 「公然抱茅入竹去。」
    2. 強調"趨向或持續 [to indicate that an action is to take place or continue]" (http://www.zdic.net/z/16/xs/53BB.htm), for instance, 「我吃了早饭就跟你上山去。」「她的兩個兒子看完《水滸》故事,踴躍下樓截道去了。」 ==> 重點不在截了道沒有, 而是在"要去截道"的趨向. 「大哥, 我和幾個兄弟昨晚截道去了. 不料半路殺出程咬金,貨還沒劫, 人反而先被打了一頓。」 ==> 完成了"去"的動作, 雖然"截道"未成.

    天那麼黑、風那麼大,爸爸捕魚去、為什麼還不回家? ==> 爸爸目前仍「離開此地」, 「去捕魚」的動作仍在「持續」, 所以不需「了」.
    昨天我到伦敦去。 早晨八点钟出发,晚上十点才回来 ==> 人已回来了, 不再是「離開此地」, 「去伦敦」的動作也已完成, 所以應該用完成式「了」.
     
  18. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    反例:
    A: 他人呢? B: 玩去了/去玩了。 (未回来)

    很难说“趋向”不包含“离开的意思”。我似乎就是不习惯单独把“去”字放在句尾,比如我习惯说:“天那麼黑、風那麼大,爸爸(去)捕魚、為什麼還不回家”。去字也不是必须的。而且我怀疑“爸爸去捕鱼”有点名词化/主题化的感觉。

    你(去)玩怎么不叫上我。 (已完成/即将)
    你要去玩怎么不叫上我。 (即将/已完成)
    ?你玩了怎么不叫上我。 (?)

    我总觉得“去”有点像语气词。这个“去”似乎不能当成单纯的时间标记。

    一边去
    我们打球去

    或许应该新开一个thread讨论。
     
  19. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Thank you all for replying. Question has been answered and topic is now closed.
     
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