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Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by ChrisSpain, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. ChrisSpain New Member

    I have seen instances where nu3li4 used as an adjective can be used either before or after the verb:

    wo3 nu3li4 de xue2xi2
    wo3 xue2xi2 de hen3 nu3li4

    I'm sure this applies to other adverbs too.

    Can anyone explain to me how this works grammatically.

    Many thanks
  2. supern001 New Member

    Chinese Sichuan Dialect
    You are right. adverbs can be either in front of verbs or after. however, your example is kind of wrong. liu li(流利)can't describe xue xi(学习),liu li mostly decrbies speech. you can say 我顺利地学习 and 我学习得很顺利。
  3. chlapec aMODiño...

    Galicia, Spain
    Galician & Spanish-Spain
    supern001, it is 努力,not 流利。
  4. ChrisSpain New Member

    Yes, nu3li4 (努力). Both phrases mean I study hard but they are not interchangeable. I wondered if anyone could explain the grammar for which circumstances they are used in.
  5. supern001 New Member

    Chinese Sichuan Dialect
    yes,yes. 努力地学习. my mistake. lol.
    in my opionion, just these 2 sentences,adverbs before or after verbs is almost the same.if i want to emphasize 学习,i would use 我努力地学习. if I want to emphasize 努力, i would use 我学习得很努力。
    however, these 2 sentences have different structures, i guess, based on my rusty grammar knowledge from middle school. if that's what you meant by not interchagebale.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  6. ChrisSpain New Member

    The circumstances in which I have seen these used are roughly as follows:

    wo3 nu3li4 de xue2xi
    Something I am currently doing or something I intend to do.

    wo3 xue2xi2 de hen3 nu3li4
    Something that happened in the past, usually with a specific time marker.

    I am not sure if there is some specific rule relating to this.

    Excuse lack of han4zi4 - I don't have it set up on this machine :)
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)
    Hi ChrisSpain, your question is fairly advanced, and many people normally just gloss over the difference between the two types of structures, because they often end up with the same translation in English (or some other foreign languages).

    When you use: (Adjective) 地+ Verb (eg. 努力地学习), you're just describe something, often objectively: 他很快地说: ... (= He quickly said: ...)
    When you use: Verb + 得(Adjective) (eg. 学习得很努力), you're expressing your own opinion on an action, so it's not necessarily objective: 他说得很快 (He speaks quite fast).

    Again, if you say 他慢慢地说, you're just describing how he says something; but if you say 他说得很慢, you may be complaining of his speed, and this is just your opinion.

    So, in your examples, you can say 她努力地学习 (perhaps because her exams are coming). Or 她学习得很努力 (and that is perhaps in your opinion why she is at the top of her class).

    No, the difference between the two structures doesn't have anything to do with time.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  8. zhg Senior Member

    Not intend to be critical, but I do feel it is unnecessary to use 得 in your second sentence "我学习得很努力"(which is grammatically correct) , because if I need to describe myself as a hard-studying student, I am more likely to say something like 我学习很努力,做事很认真...etc.

    On a second thought I doubt if I actually heard anyone saying 我学习得怎么样怎么样, but only 我学得怎么样 like 我学得很快,我学得很慢,我学得很好.
  9. ChrisSpain New Member

    Many thanks for the great explanation, xiaolijie. That really clears it up for me. Excuse delay in replying also - just been away for a long weekend.
  10. Ben pan Senior Member

    I do not agree with you. I think the reason you heard it used very seldom is because of some kind of stylish choice of our age. It is very difficult to say whether it is natural or unnatural in terms of semantics.

    他说话得很快。:cross: 他说话说得很快。:tick: In the latter sentence we even think it natural to add a repetitive word to make up the sentence. That is because that 说话 is an intransitive verb. Similarly, we say 他们打架打得很惨烈,not 打架得惨烈。

    But 学习 is a transitive verb, it has no problem with being followed by a structure led by 得 which is to function as a complement. Almost all other transitive verbs are amenable to this sort of usage.
  11. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)
    This is taking the thread into a different direction. We're discussing the differeence between 地 and 得 (and not when the verb needs to be repeated before 得, which is a separate question. You can of course make a new thread for this).
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  12. Ben pan Senior Member

    You are right. I am sorry for that.

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