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原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by luca_blue, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. luca_blue New Member

    italiano
    大家好,

    今天读了一个句子

    原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨。。

    my translation would be original wines are all GENUINE.

    how can you translate it?


    thank you
     
     
    : copula, wine
  2. tvera

    tvera Junior Member

    mandarin
    Original wines all have an unworldly taste.
    Original wines all taste ... original.

    :)
     
  3. IA1 New Member

    Chinese
    sorry to tell you that as a native chinese i dont think this sentence makes sense. we use this phrase 仙风道骨 more to describe a person than a wine. generally, this phrase represents an air celestial, heavenly and a lot like a taoist immortal. in addition, 原生根 is a rather professional word about which you'd better consult a professor on wine.
     
  4. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD Staff Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Luca_blue, can you tell us where you saw the sentence and whether it's from a reliable source. It's important for us, learners in particular, to know if the sentence is correct and worth learning from.
     
  5. luca_blue New Member

    italiano
    i saw it from a post of a an expert of wine...it was used to describe the pictures in weixin...xD
     
  6. luca_blue New Member

    italiano
    原生根 means original wine variety, this i am pretty sure...about the fact that 仙风道骨 is used more for people i dont know...but this wine expert used it...and he is a college graduate.
     
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD Staff Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Thanks Luca! I think the use of 仙风道骨 is a bit unconventional, just like we say the wines have a "divine taste". You can also say it has an "exquisite taste", which is more conventional.
     
  8. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Really? I thought 原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨 means "用原生根(=龙根 http://baike.baidu.com/view/1195959.htm)培育的葡萄所酿造的酒都有神仙般的风味和得道者似的骨劲".
    风骨 as in 仙风道骨, when used to describe literature, refers to the style of "健遒, 端". When used to describe wine, it could evoke the sense of "strong" (flavor intensity), "vigorous" (alcohol intensity), "fruity" (true to the taste and smell of grape), and "crisp" (refreshing acidity). I guess that's why the author used 仙风道骨 in such an unusual way. My translation attempt: All wine made from the original grape variety has a divine taste and vigor.
    I would not recommend that sentence to learners of Chinese. 仙风道骨 is a fixed expression describing a person. The writer risks loss of intelligibility when using it in an unconventional way. I think "原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨" is too brave a move to be successful (原生根的葡萄酒 = 仙风道骨 ==> What does that mean???). 是, an equaltional copula, is part of the confusion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  9. tvera

    tvera Junior Member

    mandarin
    I guess divine is the word.:thumbsup:
     
  10. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    I doubt if "divine" or "exquisite" is the exact word.
    In Chinese, 仙 is not the same as 神, especially in 仙风道骨. Imagine an old man sitting on a beautiful mountain, enjoying himself in the breeze, and smilingly perceiving everything happening in the crowed city at the foot of the mountain. That's more like 仙. It emphasizes on the freedom of heart and being far away from the noisy world (or being able to deal with but not involve in read world stuffs).
    I'm not sure about what "divine" exactly is. If it's about something sacred and powerful, then it may be off.

    This is a literary description. So it does not give the exact taste, but left it to the imagination of the reader. Personally I'd interpret the taste as: not irritant, not complicated, not luxurious, seems plain but actually not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  11. Kadabrium Junior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    有上下文么?单独看的话这种类似通感的手法可以有很多种解释。
     
  12. Ghabi

    Ghabi Moderator Staff Member

    Cantonese (Hong Kong)
    Food and wine critics have an unenviable job.:( You would very soon find yourself short of words, being obliged to describe food and wine day after day. You can't recycle the cliches all the time (even though you're just writing potboilers), and employing "unconventional" collocations is almost a must in this genre of writing. So no, personally I don't find the original far-fetched (sounds pretty natural to me actually).
     
  13. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    "原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨" structurally parallels to "原生根的葡萄酒都是金浆玉醴", different from "原生根的葡萄酒都是甜的" or "原生根的葡萄酒都很香气喷鼻". 仙风道骨 is a noun phrase by default, predetermined by 风 and 骨, both being nouns. If the author used 仙风道骨 as an adjective to describe taste/smell, it involves not only semantic innovation (changing from a description of a person to that of wine) but also grammatical innovation (changing from a noun to an adjective). That would be too much of a jump in my opinion, especially the grammatical switch, which is the harder part for me to take. If it was used as a noun, it would have been a phrase describing more about the "nature" or "essence" (e.g, 金浆玉醴 ==> as if made from gold and jade; 仙风道骨 ==> as if made from the spirit or bones of immortals) than about specific taste. We may say 虎骨酒, 仙风道骨酒, 这些都是虎骨酒, or 那些都是仙风道骨酒, but 这些酒都是虎骨 and 那些酒都是仙风道骨 seem rather strange. 酒 (liquid) = 骨 (solid) doesn't work well for me. 酒 (liquid) = 浆 (liquid), 醴 (liquid), 蜜 (liquid), 露 (liquid), 药 (Chinese medicine is usually cooked in soup, in liquid form), or even 血 (liquid) might do.
    A less "aggressive" approach to adjectivization involves the use of an adjective marker (e.g., 的, 之). "原生根的葡萄酒都有仙风道骨的...." would make a smoother transition.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  14. Ghabi

    Ghabi Moderator Staff Member

    Cantonese (Hong Kong)
    That's a typical "etymological fallacy". We learn and use the expression as a whole, and it doesn't matter how it's formed. We do use it as an adjective, and OP's sentence is idiomatic.

    And according to your analysis, expressions like 笨手笨腳 and 賊頭賊腦 also have to be nouns, and we have to say *他有笨手笨腳的 and *他有賊頭賊腦的.
     
  15. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    仙风道骨 can serve as an adjective when it is used as an idiom with its conventional meaning. When it is not used conventionally, the readers resort to other linguistic clues (often its original structure) for a possible new meaning. 賊頭賊腦 and 笨手笨腳 as idioms are often used as adjectives, but "innovative" sentences like "原生堂的雜肉包子都是賊頭賊腦" would likely make one wonder if those 包子 are made from some exotic meat sources like "the heads and brains of the bandits". "原生堂的雜肉包子都有賊頭賊腦的創意", on the other hand, would bring the interpretation of 賊頭賊腦的創意 to something like 鬼点子.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  16. Weilian New Member

    Mandarin
    仙风道骨: other-worldly as opposed to this-worldly, though 仙风道骨 used here to describe wines is completely weird to me in any context. Usually this one is connected to Chinese Calligraphy or something, but never wines.
     
  17. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD Staff Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Are you sure of that, Skatinginbc?

    "原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨" is perhaps unconventional but "原生根的葡萄酒都有仙风道骨的" sounds outright ridiculous to me.
     
  18. Jerry Chan Senior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese, Hokkien
    It's obvious not a complete sentence, but just a fill-in-the-blank type of thing.
    e.g.
    原生根的葡萄酒都有仙风道骨的特質/口感
    This does sound more natural to my ears than
    原生根的葡萄酒都是仙风道骨

    I agree with Skatinginbc on this discussion.
     
  19. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD Staff Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Hi Jerry, I like your suggestion. To me, it materially alters the acceptability of "原生根的葡萄酒都有仙风道骨的".
     
  20. Ghabi

    Ghabi Moderator Staff Member

    Cantonese (Hong Kong)
    Really? I can only think of something like this.:D It's interesting we understand OP's sentence so differently (perhaps because I've read too much those food stuff).
     
  21. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    That's what I meant "risking loss of intelligibility"--The readers may not get what the writer intends to say. The innovative use of 仙风道骨 involves two semantic shifts: 1) from 形容人 to 形容酒, and 2) from 风骨神采 (appearance/essence) to taste/smell. It is a big jump, not a simple semantic expansion. To improve the comprehension and acceptability of an innovative expression, the writer should skillfully provide linguistic clues (both grammatical and semantic) to the new interpretation. And I gave one example of how to provide those clues, that is, using 有...的...(e.g., 有賊頭賊腦的創意, 有仙风道骨的劲味). The 是-structure of the OP's sentence adds more confusion rather than helps reducing ambiguity. It is therefore in my opinion not a good model for learners of Chinese in acquiring the skills of creating unconventional expressions.
    That is so cute!!! 你真有賊頭賊腦的創意:D.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  22. annie21 Senior Member

    chinese
    这话是谁说的?连中国人都看不懂
     

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