回事

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by Skatinginbc, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    回 in 怎么回事 is seen as a measure word by some. There is however linguistic evidence suggesting otherwise. For instance,
    (1) 回事 can be preceded by a measure word, at least in some dialects or vernacular uses: 咋个回事,门回. 兩碼.
    (2) It behaves differently from other noun phrases containing the measure word "回":
    一回戏, 一回戏:tick:, 什么一回戏 or 怎么一回戏:cross:
    一回书, 一回书:tick:, 什么一回书 or 怎么一回书:cross:
    一回事, 一回:tick:,什么 or 怎么一回:tick:
    (3) 回事 does not usually mean (e.g., 别把自个太当回事了!). To me, 到底是怎麼回事/什麼回事 ("what exactly has happened" 你们一见就吵,到底是怎麼/什麼回事) is different from 到底是什麼事 ("what exactly is the matter" 你说有事找我,到底是什麼事).

    What's your opinion on this?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  2. ridgemao Senior Member

    Beijing
    Mandarin Chinese
    "怎么回事" is spoken chinese, and is too informal. Back in school teacher taught us to use grammar to analyze standard chinese, but not spoken chinese. So I think your question is difficult for most ordinary chinese people.

    I never said these: 一回戏, 一回戏,一回书, 一回书, 一回事, 什麼回事,怎么一回事
    I do say: 这两个是一回事(这两个是同一件事),怎么回事(发生了什么情况?),到底是怎么一回事(到底发生了什么情况?)

    For me, "到底是怎麼回事" is a little different from "到底是什麼事". But maybe "怎么“ is a local phrase used only in part of china, so you don't need to pay too much attention to it.



     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  3. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    又来纠结了~
    (1) 首先,
    “咋个回事,门回. 兩碼事” 这几种方言说法我从没听过。不怕做统计,我敢说相当少见,所以不会被任何Mandarin部门作为“参考标准”。
    (2)“回”做量词的可能解释:
    用回做事的量词,不妨把它当成一个特殊量词。特殊量词并不罕见,某个量词只能对应某个名词。
    因为确实有“一回事”,“两回事”的说法。符合数词+量词+名词的短语结构。类似的说法有“一码事”,“两码事”,“码”也显然是量词。
    前面加“怎么/什么”的问题,与“回”是否是量词无关。“怎么回事”本身是个固定组合,也就是你所谓的behaves differently
    (3)It does often mean 一件事. e.g. 这是一回事,那是另一回事。这是两回事。

    最显而易见的问题是:如果它不是量词,那它是什么?

    你的point就是“回事”本身是一个名词吧?如果有suggestion这是什么名词来历,我愿意讨论。
     
  4. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語

    《咋个回事》 is the title of a 公益片 (http://baike.baidu.com/view/9977150.htm)
    There are strong indications that 回事 was originally a verb.
    (1) 怎麼回事: 怎麼 modifies a verb (e.g., 怎麼做人, 怎麼办). 怎麼桌子:cross: vs. 怎麼回事:tick:.
    (2) 这么回事: 这么modifies either an adjective (e.g.,这么近) or a verb (e.g., 这么说, 就这么漂来漂去). 这么桌子:cross:, 这桌子 :tick:. vs. 这么回事:tick:, 这回事:tick:.

    《红楼梦》: "奶奶今儿回什么事, 这半天? 可是要热着了."
    "怎么回事" first appeared in a novel by 文康 (清朝家,满洲镶红旗人), that is, 兒女英雄傳: 那兩個騾夫都問: "怎麼回事("How do you describe the situation? What happened?")" He also used 回事 in the following sentences:
    (1) 恰好晉升進來回事 (verb),聽得這話.
    (2)我到此不久,就到邳州高堰署了兩回事 (noun回事).

    回事 in 怎麼回事 has a different meaning from 一回事. It is thus expected that some Mandarin speakers would regard "回事" as a special noun, different from 回 (measure word) + 事 (noun). For instance, says "除掉他,算什么一". Here means "一回事". It is a regular noun and thus follows a regular rule (i.e., 什么 + 回事). He also says "然而不知怎么一回事总还是阿Q吃亏的时候多". Here 怎么一回事 is treated as an idiom and therefore follows an irregular rule (i.e., 怎麼 + 回事).
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  5. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    用“咋个回事”作微电影的标题,恰恰说明它的特殊性。百度介绍中特地说:“咋个回事”是主人公的一句口头禅——都要这样特地解释了,还不够特殊?

    你那些清朝小说中的“动词”回事,明显都是“回复事情”的意思吧……
    我们来试把现代汉语中的“回事”都当作“回复事情”:
    那是怎么回事? ——“那是怎么回复事情的?”
    那是怎么一回事? ——“那是怎么一回复事情的?”
    恕我无法理解这是怎么演变过来的。

    我再给你个常见的现代口语例子,证明“怎么回事”可以解释成“怎么+量词+名词”:
    他是怎么个人? or 他是怎么一个人? ——非常通顺。
    他是什么个人? or 他是什么一个人? ——非常不通顺。
    这种句型中“怎么”=“怎么样”=how's like。加数词量词名词,文字通顺,语法正确。
    你不会为此翻遍古籍,阅尽方言,去寻找“个人”也是verb或noun的证据吧?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  6. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    I'm afraid it sounds like a regional feature because I cannot name a Chinese dictionary that includes such usage.
    Based on the number of google hits, I believe it is not an idiosyncratic variance, but a dialectal one. Because 怎么回事 did not exist in Middle Chinese and was not invented until the middle of the Qing Dynasty, other Chinese languages had to borrow it from Mandarin. During the borrowing process, a reanalysis of the syntax apparently took place. Some see 回事 as a special noun and thus feel free to add another measure word in front of it. My intention was to point out this evolutionary process: 回事 is not merely 一回事情. It means something different in people's minds.
    动词”回事" means more than “回复事情”.
    《红楼梦"众媳妇们方慢慢的一个一个的安分回事,不敢如先前轻慢疏忽了." It includes the connotation of 办事.
    《红楼梦》"说着,见赖大家的来了,接着周瑞家的张材家的都进来回事." It has the connotations of "to report, relate, tell, or explain what has happened"

    回事 appeared in 《红楼梦》,《官場現形記》, 二十年目睹之怪現狀, and other 清朝小说 that seemingly employed the sociolect of 官場. Curiously, 文康, a 满洲镶红旗, was perhaps the first that put "怎麼回事" in writing. The possibility of interference from the Manchu language cannot be excluded. "回事" was obviously nominalized in "是怎么回事", perhaps because 一回事情 was what Han Chinese would normally say (Note: 红楼梦 has 一回事情 but no 一回事, which is a later product.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  7. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    1. "怎么回事"是口语表达固定用法,我举的“怎么个人”也是口语的固定用法,我所说的“通顺"自然也指“口语”的通顺。

    2. 中国(PRC)权威机构自元朝起倾向于使用北方方言。“怎么个人”可能来源于北方方言,但其普及程度足以让大部分中国(PRC)的人听懂。所以我称为“口语通顺”。

    3. 你爱举古文,爱举鲁迅,我随便一查,查到这条奉上:
    ……马汉道,“喝酒是小事,但不知锦毛鼠是怎么个人?”
    ——鲁迅《中国小说史略》引《三侠五义》段落。

    4. “怎么”有时也可意译为“what”,如:维基词典将“怎么样”中的“怎么”解释为what。
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/怎麼樣
    如果在"怎么回事"中也译为what,就更说得通了。
    How也没关系。英语中的how,同样有How's something的说法。

    5. 你那些动词“回事”的意义,也都是由“回复”引申出来的吧……
    即使我们把它当作“办事”:“那是怎么一办事?”还是解释不通啊……"一"后加动词?算啥啊……

    6. 正推:
    “(那是)怎么回事”中的“怎么”,很明显是描述how is something,而非how to do something。
    此处“怎么”相当于“怎么样/怎样”。
    “回”作量词解释得通,符合语法。

    7. 反证:
    “怎么样”后面可以加动词、数词、量词、形容词、“的”,就是不能直接加名词。所以“回事”不是名词。而且没有“回事”这个名词吧……
    如果你说“回事”是动词,那"一回事""两回事"又解释不通,所以也不是动词。
    ……多数人都能直接感觉它是量词,这么证明也太费劲了。
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  8. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Thank you, SuperXW. Because of your input, I searched a couple of 清朝小说 and finally found a sentence that solved all the mystery: 《官場現形記》: 然而立時立刻要辦怎麼一個差使,還要辦得妥貼,著實為難.

    The structure 怎麼 + measure word + noun was indeed used in 清朝官場. The fact I could not find this usage in dictionaries seems to suggest it is restricted to only certain dialects.
     
  9. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    "怎么一出戏" :tick: 如:老梁体育评书刘翔摔倒是怎么一出戏 Google 9,370,000 hits(包括其他用法)
    “怎么一个故事” :tick: 如:万物生讲述怎么一个故事 Google 8,610,000 hits(包括其他用法)
    只要换个现代说法,就都打勾了。
    我只能说,现代人有兴趣研究“怎么一回书/一回戏”的太少了,这说法就没兴起来。
    而想知道“怎么回事”的可不少,清朝用到现代,成为现代口语的一个说法。

    现代人有几个接触到“一回书”“一回戏”?
    反而在“做一回,干一回”这种说法中,“回”字更常用做量词。
    “做一回,干一回”的“回”是量词吧?
    它的默认宾语是“事情”吧?
    那么,在人们概念中,“回”可以做“事情”的量词吧?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  10. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    As I said, 元朝以后,政府倾向使用北方方言,因为首都搬去了北京嘛。北方方言即使变成“官话”,也不足为奇。
    For your reference, 有人有类似的疑问,而字典也确实有使用“怎么个...法”。
    http://www.jiaodui.com/bbs/read.php?tid=24582
    Interesting enough, "...法" 你可以认为是动词+宾语,也可以当作整个一个名词。
     
  11. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    我觉得首先要明确几点事情:
    1. 语法在汉语里并不重要。创造现代白话汉语的中国人里边,99.9999999%的没有听说过“语法”、“量词”、甚至“词”。而你说一句话的时候,考虑的往往是词句的斟酌,语法上只要句子通顺就可以了。
    2. 汉语在不同地区、不同时间差别很大。比如“怎么”,在天津叫“恁么”,在东北叫“咋”;《红楼梦》里满篇的“因”,现代汉语没有这么用的。
    3. 如果讨论的是现代汉语的话,我觉得更多的应该是“揣摩”而不是“考据”。
    4. 我大叫一声“我了个大去!!”,您不会去考证“大”是不是形容词吧?

    言归正传,

    “咋个回事”我听过,基本上可以接受。我觉得这里的问题不在“回”而在“咋个”。“咋个”在一些北方方言里是经常连在一起的,“回事”也经常连在一起。于是乎就有人把它们当成了两个词。
    “哪门回事”、“两码回事”从来没听说过。

    “回”作量词我觉得是从章回体的小说演变来的,因此有“一回书”、“一回戏”、“一回事”。我不觉得“怎么一回戏”、“怎么一回书”是错的,它们跟“怎么一个人”、“怎么一回事”没有什么区别。相反,“什么一……”对我来说全是错的。

    至于“别把自个太当回事了”,我觉得“别把自个太当个事了”也是对的,北方话里也可以说“把自己当凳儿啊!”。这里不是量词的问题,而是“事”这个词的意思的问题。

    关于“怎么回事”和“什么事”的区别,我的感觉和你一样。“怎么回事”=“怎么件事”=“怎么个事”,都表示事情的经过;“什么事”表示这就是是哪件事。这里主要应该是“怎么”和“什么”的区别,而无关量词。

    最后,在任何一本字典里,无论《重編國語辭典修訂本》还是大陆的官方字典,都把“回”解释成量词。
     
  12. BODYholic Senior Member

    Singapore
    Chinese Cantonese
    我想你搞错了。

    In "怎麼回事", 怎麼 is an interrogative pronoun (not an adverb here) and it doesn't modify the words (be it verb or not) that follow.

    I think before you deep dive in to 回事, you ought to have a better grasp of the word 怎么. For me, 怎么回事 is just a lazy way of saying 怎么(来的一)回事. And one of the several definitions in 汉典 also states 怎么 as (6) 犹如何,怎样 . Another words, 怎么回事 can also be taken as 怎样回事.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  13. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    《官場現形記》: 然而立時立刻要辦怎麼一個差使 (= 怎么来的一個差使 :confused:),還要辦得妥貼,著實為難.
    怎麼来的一個差使? = 怎样一個差使? :confused: It seems they don't mean the same.
    鲁迅 didn't say "怎么个人". The author of 《三侠五义》 did. It is 石玉昆, a 天津人, again, someone that spoke the Northern Dialect.
    这部影片怎么个拍法, 下一步怎么个搞法儿--Not being a speaker of the Northern Dialect, I automatically interpret them as 这部影片怎样拍 and 下一步怎样走 (i.e., 拍法 and 搞法儿 as verbs, and 个 as a particle without meaning). I could take them as noun phrases however only if I read them as 这部影片怎样一个拍法, 下一步怎样一个搞法儿. Then again, they would sound rather awkward.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  14. BODYholic Senior Member

    Singapore
    Chinese Cantonese
    Do I have to remind you 怎么 has more than a meaning?

    闷,怎一个字了得。
     
  15. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Thanks for everyone's help. I learned quite a lot. I always treated 怎么回事 as an exception, and little did I know that 怎么 + measure word + noun has existed for over a century. And I learned 怎么 = 咋个 = 怎样. Interesting!
     

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