Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by baosheng, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. baosheng Senior Member

    Canada, English

    I have a question about the following passage which I saw on Facebook. I think it is something to do with philosophy/how to live your life/zen:

    我想问一下: Is the 多音字 "调" supposed to be pronounced tiao2 or diao4 here? (I can't seem to find a matching meaning for it.. )
    Also, what is the exact meaning of the whole passage?

    Thanks in advance for your help!

    EDIT: attempt at translating deleted since it contained many mistakes
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  2. stellari Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    XX门 means 'XX school' or 'the teaching of XX school'
    调 should be pronounced tiao2 here, meaning ‘to condition', 'to (fine-)tune'. diao4 means 'tone/tune', 'to investigate', 'to (officially) move something from one location to another'...
    野马 is 'wild horse'

    I would translate the sentence as:
    If we follow the teaching of zen, tuning our breath, body, mind, and gradually taming and softening the heart (as wild as) wild horses and monkeys, then life will be happier and longer.
  3. baosheng Senior Member

    Canada, English
    Ah this makes a lot more sense now. Your translation is very good! Thanks for your help, Stellari :)
  4. goodatchinese Junior Member

    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  5. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)
    It may be worth noting that the pronunciation of 调 in 调息、调身、调心 is "tiáo", it is "diào" in 调伏.
    (Although the meaning of 调 is the same in all these words, 调伏 is a special Buddhist term and still carries the pronunciation "diào")
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  6. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Mandarin 國語
    证严上人 and 淨空法師, as well as Taiwanese news reporters, pronounce as "tiáo fú". Although is originally a phono-semantic matching of Sanskrit damy:et "to tame", it is not a strict phonetic translation 译, and therefore I don’t see why it should read “diào” instead of "tiáo”. Archaism is not a good reason, either, because it fails to explain why alone preserves a feature of the past whereas has the contemporary /f-/ instead of Middle Chinese /b-/. Why should be treated differently from other Buddhist terms when it comes to modern pronunciation? People in Mainland China actually say "diào "?
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)
    调伏 is an established term and you can look up its reading in most dictionaries. Please do not contradict others without adequate information or just because you personally think otherwise. The forum is a place of serious learning. If you disagree with something, please do some research before posting. Posts like no #6 serve no purposes and in furture will be deleted without warning.
  8. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Mandarin 國語
    The purpose of my post is to ask the following questions:
    1. Is 伏 in fact commonly pronounced "diào " in Mainland China? If so, then the pronunciation given by those dictionaries is based on a descriptive ground.
    2. If
    伏 is in fact commonly pronounced as "tiáo fú" in Mainland China as it is in Taiwan, then the pronunciation given by those dictionaries is based on a prescriptive ground. Then my question is: What is the prescriptive ground? I don't see it.
    Another purpose of my post is to point out the fact that the common pronunciation of
    伏 in Taiwan is "tiáo fú". This fact, I believe, is interesting to those involved in serious learning.

    I never said you were wrong. I was simply stating the fact that
    证严上人 and 淨空法師, as well as Taiwanese news reporters, pronounce as "tiáo fú". This fact is supported by numerous videos on Youtube. Yes, I have done some research before posting.

    <<...Edited out by moderator... >>

    Moderator's Note: Please do not edit your post after someone has replied to it, as this may change the content of the message that the reply was intended for. If there is something in your post that you need to change in such a situation, write to the moderator for assistance.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  9. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    English (UK)

    Your original question was not in the spirit you're trying to explain, and you didn't show any evidence of the existence of the alternative pronunciation. We welcome intelligent debates but what you have frequently been doing is using variations between Taiwan & Mainland China to create confusions among learners. Variations do exist, but what you should do, if you wish, is to state the variation in your dialect, without trying to make as if the mainstream version is wrong. Remember that the majority of students of Chinese are taught the mainland standard, and you should explain the difference, if it exists, from the point of view of the standard that the students have been taught, so as not to confuse them.


    - Just in case anyone may wonder, here are some of the sources I consulted for my earlier post on the pronunciation of 调伏:

    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  10. Ghabi

    Ghabi Moderator

    Hong Kong
    Hi! It's not a transliteration (whether partly or wholly), as far as I know. The word 調 can be used by itself to mean "tame" in ancient texts, including Buddhist scriptures, for example,

    《長阿含經》大本經第一:佛時頌曰 如象善調 隨意所之 大眾如是 隨教而還

    So it seems that 調伏, like tons of other disyllabic Chinese words, is just a compound word consisting of two synonyms (there's also the word 摧伏 used in Buddhist scriptures with the same meaning).

    The Sanskrit verb is dam दम (root form) or daamyati दाम्यति (third-person singular present indicative active form). The former, transliterated the way ancient Chinese monks did their transliterations, would be something like 陀摩. The character 調, ending with the final /w/, seems an unlikely candidate for rendering द (Compare 調達 *dew-dat, the name of the arch-baddie in Buddhist stories, which is an abbreviated form of 提婆達多 devadatta देवदत्त).

    But of course it's not to say that it's "wrong" to say tiao2fu2, it's just that the prescriptive diao4fu2 is not exactly a whim (Compare the word 調馴, glossed by dictionaries as diao4xun4).
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  11. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Mandarin 國語
    Perhaps you misunderstood me. I didn't say it was a transliteration. I said it was a phono-semantic matching, a "camouflaged borrowing in which a foreign word is matched with a phonetically and semantically similar pre-existent native word" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phono-semantic_matching). 調 tiáo already meant "tame" in Han Dynasty. "surrender" expanded its meaning to "subdue, make somebody yield" at a later time (e.g., 降龙伏虎 attested in 《梁高僧传》 compared to 汉董仲舒: 遂伐楚, 楚人降伏 "surrender", 以安中国), probably in itself a phono-semantic matching with Vedic bhū as in abhibhū 摧伏 (Middle Chinese *bʰjuk) "overcoming, conquering, vanquishing, having power over". 調 and were pre-existing words, but the combination 調伏 never showed up until the advent of Buddhist texts. It was used to translate Sanskrit dam 調伏, damatha 調伏意 (http://www2.fodian.net/World/term-sa.html), as well as other terms that carry the meaning of "tame". Anyway, the point I tried to make was: It was technically NOT a transliteration and therefore the Sanskrit pronunciation should have no bearing on the modern Chinese pronunciation for 調伏. I think we made the same point.

    調伏 means (1) tiao2 he2 身口意三业,以制伏诸恶, or (2) 调教 tiao2 jiao4 驯服. Do you say diao4 he2 and diao4 jiao4 调教? Have you ever said diao4 fu2 調伏 and diao4 xun4 調馴 in real life? I would have difficulty understanding them if I hear them in real life :p. There was a thread (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2682600) discussing the inconsistency of online dictionaries. 典 transcribes 調馴 as diào xùn, and yet under the entry of [FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia]調 it prescribes [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]tiáo for [FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia]调教[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia]训练 ([URL]http://www.zdic.net/z/24/js/8C03.htm[/URL]) or 驯服训练 "tame;train;drill" ([URL]http://www.zdic.net/z/24/xs/8C03.htm[/URL]). [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    Here is a list of online dictionaries that prescribe tiáo fú for
    1. 佛教词典大全: http://cidian.foyuan.net/word/608212/
    2. 字典通: http://baike.zidiantong.com/t/tiaofu275073.htm
    3. 中文百科在线: http://dict.zwbk.org/WdShowWd.aspx?wid=236621&p=tiao
    4. 美美文: http://www.meimeiwen.com/cihai/citiao.php?id=263654
    5. 新汉英大辞典: http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=调伏其心&keyfrom=dict.index
    6. 爱词霸权威在线词典: http://www.iciba.com/调伏其心
    7. Chenguo 在线词典: http://chenguo.net/dic/query.aspx?q=조복&dic=0
    8. Free Chinese & Japanese Online Dictionary: http://www.free-chinese-dictionary.com/?q=調伏方便
    9. Wiktionary: http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/调伏

    We also need to look at the pronunciation from a "descriptive" approach, that is, how the native speakers actually pronounce it.
    Here is a list of Buddhist documents that transcirbe tiáo fú for [FONT=Georgia]調伏: [/FONT]
    1. 注音版地藏经卷上: http://www.dizang.org/dzjd/dzj1.htm
    2. 千手千眼大悲懺法: http://www.longbeachmonastery.org/T...with a Thousand Hands and a Thousand Eyes.pdf
    3. 南無大方廣佛華嚴經: http://www.berkeleymonastery.org/uploads/6/3/3/1/6331706/avatamsaka_2nd_3rd_grounds.pdf
    證嚴法師調伏人生二十難: http://www.worldcat.org/title/tiao-fu-ren-sheng-er-shi-nan/oclc/259086614
    5. 圖丹卻准調伏自心: http://www.worldcat.org/title/tiao-fu-zi-xin-kuai-le-sheng-huo-de-zhi-hui/oclc/286913711
    6. 文殊菩薩十大願: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...F-fBPWfPT2aC8Ww&bvm=bv.53899372,d.aWc&cad=rja
    7. 大乘莊嚴寶王經: http://ftp.budaedu.org/ghosa/C025/T011D/ref/T011D_02.pdf
    Youtube clips in which 調伏 is pronounced as tiao fu by the Buddhist community are also readily available.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013

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