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怎麼 (adjective)

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by Skatinginbc, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    怎麼 is listed as an adverb in Wordreference (http://www.wordreference.com/zhen/怎么). Some dictionaries define it as "如何,怎样" (e.g., http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/9/ZdicE6Zdic80Zdic8E356719.htm), that is to say, an adverb or pronoun. In fact, none of the dictionaries I consulted explain its adjective function under the entry of 怎麼 as if this function is non-standard. Before giving examples of such function, I would first clarify what I mean by "adjective":
    What are you reading? ==> "What" is an interrogative pronoun.
    What place did you visit? ==> "What" is an interrogative adjective.
    What kind of books do you like? ==> "What kind of" is an interrogative adjective.
    Tell me what kind of books you like ==> "what kind of" [FONT=&amp](什么[/FONT]样[FONT=&amp]的) [/FONT]is an interrogative pro-adjective.

    Examples of 怎麼 as an adjective:
    [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]明[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]《[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]金瓶梅[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]》: [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]请你们往他家走走去,就瞧瞧春花儿[FONT=&amp]怎么模[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]==> [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎麼 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]modifies the noun [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]模[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT].
    [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]明[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]《[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]金瓶梅[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]》: [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]“[/FONT][FONT=&amp]六姐,你端的怎么[/FONT]缘故?告我说则个。==> [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎麼 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]modifies the noun 缘故.[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp] 明崇禎[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]陸人龍[/FONT]《型世言》: [/FONT][FONT=&amp]縣尊道:[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“[/FONT][FONT=&amp]也罷。[/FONT][FONT=&amp]”[/FONT][FONT=&amp]叫鄭氏:[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“[/FONT][FONT=&amp]你道是怎麼兩個箱?我就押你兩人去取來" [/FONT]==> [FONT=&amp]怎麼[/FONT] modifies [FONT=&amp]兩個箱[/FONT].
    [FONT=&amp]清[/FONT][FONT=&amp]李漁[/FONT][FONT=&amp]《連城璧》:[/FONT][FONT=&amp]不知是[/FONT][FONT=&amp]怎麼兩個相貌[/FONT][FONT=&amp],都一般有這樣的孝心.[/FONT]==> [FONT=&amp]怎麼[/FONT] modifies [FONT=&amp]兩個[/FONT][FONT=&amp]相貌[/FONT].
    《红楼梦》: 到底是怎麼個緣故呢?[FONT=&amp]怎麼個寫法兒[/FONT][FONT=&amp]?不知他是怎麼個情性[/FONT]. [FONT=&amp]陰陽是怎麼個樣兒?到底[/FONT][FONT=&amp]怎麼個[/FONT][FONT=&amp]辦法?[/FONT]
    And of course, the later attested 到底是[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎麼[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]回事
    (Note:The adjectival function of 怎麼 is absent in [FONT=&amp]《水[/FONT]浒传[FONT=&amp]》([/FONT][FONT=&amp]施耐庵 1296年-1372年))[/FONT].

    My Questions:
    (1) Is there any reason that this adjectival usage is not listed under the entry of 怎麼 by most, if not all, Chinese dictionaries?
    (2) Is there any semantic difference between [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么模[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]and[FONT=&amp] 什么[/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]模[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT], or between [FONT=&amp]怎么[/FONT]缘故 and [FONT=&amp]什么[/FONT]缘故?
    (3) (清)惜红居士《李公案奇闻[FONT=&amp]》: [/FONT][FONT=&amp]閒話少[/FONT][FONT=&amp]說,到底是[/FONT][FONT=&amp]麼個緣故[/FONT]. So, can I say: 什么个概念, 什么个情况, 什么个程序, 什么个意思...., and therefore 什么回事? [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  2. BODYholic Senior Member

    Singapore
    Chinese Cantonese
    "What" in the above sentence mostly behaves as an interrogative pronoun. In odd situation (may be there are situations that really called for) it may be an interrogative adjective.

    Q: What place did you visit in China? (interrogative pronoun)
    I visited the the Great Wall.

    Q: What place did you visit in China? (interrogative adjective)
    I visited a nice place. (but it is a rather unusual reply I must say)

    a. My guess is that most of the dictionaries you consulted are contemporary which list words used in this modern world. You may need to refer to a more specialized dictionary (if it exists) for those archaic definitions/usages.

    b. Also, some Chinese dictionaries which have word class tagged (adjective, verb, pronoun & etc) are mostly inferred from English sentences. Nciku may be a good example for this case.
    Say, to explain the meaning of [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]to non-native Chinese speakers. The dictionary may give an example as such,
    "[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]瞧瞧春花儿[FONT=&amp]怎么模[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]" - The English equivalent may be translated as "To take a look how[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp] 春花儿[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] looks like".
    So you see [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]serves as an interrogative pronoun, how, in the English sentence.

    I have never said or heard someone said [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么模[/FONT]样/[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp]怎么[/FONT]缘故, but may be [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]模[/FONT]样/[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]缘故. I interpret them as [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]怎么[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]来的一个[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]模[/FONT]样/[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]缘故.

    Yes, you may.
     
  3. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Do you mean this usage is not "standard" in contemporary Mandarin (By "standard", I mean it is not readily accepted by Mandarin speakers of all regions)?
    So, [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]in your mind, 怎么 is an adverb modifying an implied verb ([/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]e.g., 来)? To facilitate our communication, here are some links that define what I mean "adjective", "adverb", and "modify" (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1369761, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090303000800AAwj68T, http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/adverbs_interrogative.php).

    What would be the implied verb in [FONT=&amp]你道是怎麼兩個箱[/FONT] "Tell me what the two boxes you referred to look like"?
    [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]Is it possible that 怎么 as an adjective is not included in dictionaries partially because [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]in people's minds its adjectival function is being taken by [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]什么?
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


    [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]This is what puzzles [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]me: 怎么 + noun phrase construction has a long history. It started in the Ming Dynasty and is thus unlikely a result of linguistic interference from Manchu. It was used in classic literature [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]such [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]as [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]《[/FONT]金瓶梅[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]》[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] and [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]《红楼梦》 and is still commonly used at least in the north based on what I have gathered from another thread. Why is this usage virtually absent in Taiwan and presumably in Hongkong and Singapore as well? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=1][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][FONT=&amp][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Why isn't it [SIZE=2]even [/SIZE]mentioned in [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]新华字典 and other authoritative dictionaries published in the Mainland?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  4. sanqi21 New Member

    China
    Mandarin
    (1)“怎么”现在一般用作“怎么回事”,或者更多的用作副词(adv),组成"怎么+动词(V)"的结构,比如“怎么办”、“怎么做”、“怎么会”、“怎么能”,等等,也有“怎么了”、“怎么啦”的用法。现代汉语中,“怎么”几乎没有作为形容词的用法了,我想这可能是现在的字典中都没有收录这一用法的原因。也许古汉语字典里会收录这种用法吧。
    (2)意思上应该没有区别,只是现在不用“怎么摸样”“怎么缘故”(日常生活中绝对不会出现这一用法),而只用“什么摸样”“什么缘故”。不过如果你非要说“怎么摸样”“怎么缘故”我想大部分人也应该能明白你的意思。
    (3)日常生活中有“什么个概念, 什么个情况, 什么个程序, 什么个意思”的用法,不过现在“什么个”有种俏皮的意味,非正式,使用较少,更多的是用直接使用“什么”。没有“什么回事”的用法,只有“怎么回事”的用法。不过像上面一样,如果你非要用“什么回事”,我想大部分人也会明白。


    汉语经过几千年的发展变化很大,很多词的意思、用法都发生了非常大的变化,即使是民国时期的白话文对大部分人来说读起来也会感觉拗口,更不要说明清小说了。Maybe,
    怎么 as an adjective is not included in dictionaries is because in people's minds its adjectival function is being taken by 什么。

    我来自中国大陆的北方。我想既然你都在读《金瓶梅》了,那么我写的你应该很容易就明白吧,我就不用英语了
    :D
     

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