您们 / 你们

本文由 Youngfun2011-10-14 发表於 "中文+方言 (Chinese)" 讨论区

  1. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    以前在学习汉语时,我的汉语老师和我爷爷认为“您们”很别扭,应该说“你们”,而我老爸认为应该说”您们“
    哪个是对的呢?
     
  2. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    没有对错吧。「您们」作为「您」的一种延伸,的确不普及。我印象中用到「您们」的地方,就是我们小时写板报或开大会,对老师尊称「您们」,感觉娇柔做作,生活中一般不会那样说话。

    这种词还是顺其自然吧。我记得我小时候语文书上还有一段老学究的文章,认为「你好」很别扭。但该普及的,最终还是普及了。
     
  3. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    I think I've read somewhere that "您" itself has the plural sense, and that is the reason for “您们” to sound awkward. Still, I can imagine some people using “您们” but I guess this should be rare. (How I wish I didn't sound just like an "arm-chair scholar"!:D).
     
    Last edited: 2011-10-15
  4. dlj0811 Banned

    ENGLISH
    makes no different

    您们sounds more respectful^_^
     
  5. name my name

    name my name Senior Member

    chinese
    I remember that when I was in high school, I used "您们" in my article. Then my teacher told me that "您们"is wrong,and it should be "你们". The funny thing was my teacher counted "您们" in my article. There are 36 "您们" in it. And he gave me 36 points to let me remember this mistake.
     
  6. Lyfia

    Lyfia Junior Member

    Singapore
    Chinese - Mandarin
    现代汉语词典:
    [nín]
    〈代〉
    1. (会意。从你,从心。表示尊重。本义:“你”的尊称) 同本义 [you]。如:您好
    2. 注意:用于多数时不加词尾“们”,两个人称“您俩”或“您二位”,三个人称“您仨”或“您三位”,三个人以上称“您诸位”。
     
    Last edited: 2011-10-21
  7. Yin Yun New Member

    China Mainland
    Chinese
    多人尊称,一般用“您几位”。
    你好虽然对熟人别扭,但对陌生人和长久没有联系的人还是可以用的。
     
  8. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    聽上去很北京。:D
     
  9. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    其实,现在“您”本来就很北京 :D
    特别是中国南方,在特别正式的场合或书面语才用,日常生活很少用。
    而北京人的“您”非常类似意大利人的lei,西班牙人的usted,法国人的vous,跟任何不认识的人,或跟年纪大一点的人,为表示尊重都用。

    谢谢大家!
    所以,如果说”各位“,已经可以算”您“的plural了吗?
     
  10. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    您是“你门”的缩音,本身就是“你”的复数形式。
    我估计这是北京“门”比较多,所以用“门”来指代方位。:d
    粤语用“地”(待确认)。

    用方位词表示尊敬(不敢直指)和复数(泛指)是汉语跟日语共通的用法。
    比如古汉语的“下”“前”“驾”“座”,日语的“方”“所”等等,似乎通常都不接复数。
    因为直接表复数通常就是实指了。直接议论别人跟敬语的本质相违。而泛指的方位词表复数则重复。

    不过日语的“貴方”本义已失,变成二人称代词,也接复数词尾。汉语的“您”会不会也朝这个方向发展呢?

    顺便说一下,我生活中经常用“您”(比如对教授,除了特别熟的),但“您们”对我来说很别扭。如果遇到需要指明复数的情况下,我会用“大家”“两位教授”“各位教授”“某教授和某教授”,全部使用三人称,而不用二人称。
    “位”也是方位词,不可以用“位们”这样的说法,但可能因为指代的范围非常小(一个座位),所以可以用“两位”“各位”“几位”“这位”这样的词限定。大概是例外吧。
     
  11. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    表示完全不能理解……0.0
    就算方位代表尊稱吧,怎麼又變成複數了……
    完全不能理解……0.0
     
  12. 南島君 Senior Member

    Taipei, Taiwan
    Mandarin
    題外話... 其實“們”早在宋代的白話文獻已見,當時寫作“懑”,而南北宋的地理位置,你也知道....
    不過還是不能排除後來轉寫“們”是受北京的“門”影響 xDDD .....
     
  13. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    口语词的用字似乎不能说明什么问题。比如“拽文”“呆在家里”等等,可能仅仅是音相近的缘故。
    我稍稍查了一下相关资料,似乎也不能确定“们”必定是起源于“门”。“们起源于门”是日本人 太田辰夫最早主张的(果然会日语的都有共鸣)。方言里类似的还有“集”“里”“都”“地”等。
    而“您”早先用法跟“你们”一样,单复数皆可,复数较多。而且有“连类复数”这样泛指一类人的用法,我个人觉得起源于方位词的可能性较大,可以跟“家”参照。家指类:小孩子家、姑娘家、老人家……

    方位词的特点是不直指,所以可以用作泛指。甚至指一类事物。
    日语的敬语远较汉语发达,现在仍然使用的两个复数词尾“方”(かた)“たち”(立ち,站立的地方),都是起源于方位词,而且都有复数,尊敬的意思。“方”还有表示约数、大致的意思。我觉得由方位词产生复数的用法并不难理解。

    当然,我也不确定“们”是不是起源于方位词了。
    不过现代汉语里,“我们”似乎比“我”更谦逊一点,可能也是因为泛指群体,而不突出自己。不排除不经由方位词,直接由复数产生尊敬的可能性。
     
  14. 南島君 Senior Member

    Taipei, Taiwan
    Mandarin
    太田辰夫認爲「們」的語源是「門」,是取「門」作爲同一族人的語義,而這個「門」,非常抱歉,不是方位的意思。
    首先,實物的「門」,是個實物名詞,不是方位。後來,以每一戶都有一個門、住同一戶同享一門的情形,借喻「門」表達連類複數,指同一族人,這個門也不是方位。
    再説,相仿的,例子中的「家」也不是方位。

    lc
     
  15. uohvg2 New Member

    English - Chinese
    i think both OK.
     
  16. bamboobanga

    bamboobanga Senior Member

    san francisco
    chinese mandarin
    If everyone started to say 您们 from now on, 您们 would be no wrong. :cool:
     
  17. Liqun818 New Member

    Chinese
    影响第一印象。一般会这么认为,“您们”表示尊敬,“你们”这一层意思少一些。
    但时间长了,相互有了认识,就没差别了,有时候后者反而显得更直率。
     
  18. softserve Junior Member

    Taiwan/Viet Nam/Cambodia
    Mandarin (Traditional Chinese)
    Normally, i wouldn't use the respectful form of "你" unless in emails where i need to show my respect for the person addressed not necessarily because of his/her age.
     
  19. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    您 < 你每 (now 你们) = 恁 (= 你 ni + Altaic oblique marker -n) forming complementary distribution with 你 (like English "he" is in complementary distribution with "him" and "his"). This archaic usage is preserved in Min, for instance, Min 恁家 "your family" (where 恁 "your" is in the genitive case) = Mandarin 你家 or 你们家, in contrast to Min 你好 (where 你 "you" is in the nominal case) = Mandarin 你好. The plural sense of 您 is also retained in Tianjin dialect (cf. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/您).
    Taiwan dictionaries define 您 as "第二人稱。你的敬稱。多用於長輩。亦泛指你們", and thus 您们 = 你們們, which is ungrammatical.
     
    Last edited: 2014-07-28
  20. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich
    English, Chinese
    Is this an archaic use, or is it still common today? I got the impression that words like 大家 and 各位 are more prevalent nowadays.
     
  21. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    In my neck of the woods, its plural sense is becoming obsolete. 您 is now pretty much restricted to a 2nd person singular honorific pronoun. Then again, in expressions like “您俩” (= 你们俩) and “您诸位” (= 你们诸位), 您 is used in its plural sense meaning 你们.
     
    Last edited: 2014-07-27
  22. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich
    English, Chinese
    That's what got me thinking, because it's also not uncommon to see 你俩 and 你诸位. In these cases, the pronouns are definitely plural in form, but is 你 or 俩 the modifier?
     
  23. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Well, 你 in 你俩 and 你诸位 is like "you" in "you two" and "you all", 称对方,指若干人 (e.g., 你方). 你, though commonly used for singular, can sometimes be used for plural.
     
  24. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich
    English, Chinese
    Thanks for the clarification. I've always assumed 你 to be a singular pronoun unless it's paired with 们, 俩, 各位 etc, in which case the modifier (from singular to plural) is the suffix.

    Whereas 您, as explained previously, could be used without any suffix to indicate a plural connotation.
     
  25. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    I might have confused you. Let me try again:
    您, like 你, is largely restricted to the singular sense in contemporary Mandarin (except for certain dialects). When not acting as the head of a noun phrase, they may carry a plural sense (e.g., 您家/你家 could mean 你们家; 您/你 in 您俩/你俩 means 你们, which functions like the determiner "these" or "those"). Note that 你 in those examples of a plural sense does not serve a nominal function (e.g., 你家 ==> genitive; 你俩 ==> determiner), and so the Altaic oblique marker -n was applied (thereby 您家, 您俩) by foreign invaders as a result of language transfer. And that's how 您's original association with plural came about. Perhaps when speaking to the invaders that enjoyed a higher social status, ancient Han Chinese changed their speech to the style of those invaders to show "respect" (to fawn over or curry favor with the rulers), and consequently 您 becomes associated with "respect".

    I'm not sure about Beijing Mandarin. As far as Taiwan Mandarin is concerned, it is usually a singular if not attached to another morpheme. Evidence from Taiwanese (Min language) however suggests that once upon a time it was mainly a plural form. For instance, (singular) 對你說 ga li gong vs. (plural) 對恁說 ga lin gong, and it is NOT honorific. It is even used in profanity: 幹恁娘 gan lin nia, rendered in Mandarin as 幹你娘. 恁 (= 您) has nothing to do with "showing respect" in the Min language.
     
    Last edited: 2014-07-28
  26. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich
    English, Chinese
    Yeah, I guess Min words like 您娘, 您老爸, 您老母 have somewhere along the way lost their honorific connotations and got fused together to mean simply "your mother" and "your father". Like everything else, even traditional dialects have evolved a fair bit.

    Likewise in Mandarin, we hardly see 您 in its plural form anymore.

    各位观众朋友您好 <-- not sure if this counts as one
     

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