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愚かな生き方となりはてれど

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by hoshiboshi, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. hoshiboshi Junior Member

    English - US
    今、歌詞を読んで、分かりづらい言葉を見つけました。
    歌は、だれかが闇の感の世界に、歌います。 独りで生き残るだと思います。

    黒うさPの「ウタウタイ」と言う曲です。


    ~~
    悲しみも憎しみも
    私が受け止めよう
    愚かな生き方となりはてれど

    ~~


    「なりはてれど」とは、どんな意味ですかなぁ? 
    なりはてれ = 成り果てれ? 「ど」は、どうして文末にありますか?


    すこし日本語を話せますから、簡単な日本語か英語で 答えてください。 ^_^’
    ありがとうございます!
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  2. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    こんにちは

    It's best to wait for a native speaker's opinion, but my guess is that なりはてれど may be an abbreviated version of なりはてれど, as I have often come across such abbreviations in song lyrics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  3. Schokolade Senior Member

    England
    Japanese
    成り果てれど = the verb "成り果てる" + the particle "ど", 「成り果てるけれども」「成り果てても」 

    ●「成り果てれ」 = the conjugated form of the verb "成り果てる"
    ●「ど」 = the (archaic?) conjunctive particle. 「~けれども」「~ても」(although~/even if~)
    http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/154703/m0u/ど/
    It's an inversion(倒置). In the normal word order it'd be愚かな生き方と成り果てれど、悲しみも憎しみも私が受け止めよう」 = 「愚かな生き方になってしまうけれど(orなってしまっても)、(あなたの?)悲しみも憎しみも、私が受け止めましょう。」
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  4. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    So ーど is an archaic form rather than an abbreviation - interesting. Does it now have a literary feel (thus befitting song lyrics)?"
     
  5. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    The archaic ど is chose probably more due to prosodic concerns. In other words the songwriter had to find a short word to fit the line into the melody. In fact, the wrong conjugation 成り果てれど is somewhat disturbing for conveying a literary feel.

    Then again, correcting it by 成り果つれど or 成り果てたれど does not make it sound better. Hmmm.
     
  6. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Ah~=3 難しいね。成り果てるけれど is more modern usage. Haven't you ever seen ~ + けれど? I feel like, the writer had to or wanted to use ど, not けれど, because of limitation the melody makes, as lrosa and Flaminius said, or any other reasons. ど is exactly one of the old Japanese words, and 成り果てれど is not wrong grammatically. Moreover, it sounds cooler than 成り果てるけれど.

    Then, let's connect 成り果てる and ど. る has to change to れ. なぜだろうね?いろいろと理由はあるんだろうけど、語尾変化をしなくちゃいけないようだよ。 This is very similar to the case of 食べる、食べれば・・ and see this sample: 武士は食わねど高楊枝.

    食わない―食わね(ne), 食べる―食べれ(re), 成り果てる―成り果てれ(re)
     
  7. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I referred to it as the wrong conjugation in terms of the classical grammar. ど casts the suffixed element into the realis form (已然形). 成り果つ, the lower 2-dan (forgive an in promptu translation) verb, is 成り果つれ in the realis.
     
  8. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    I'm not sure I understand why the 基本形 is 成り果つ and not 成り果てる. I understand that if we took 成り果てる as the 基本形 (which seems easier and therefore must not be correct :rolleyes:), the 已然形/仮定形 would be 成り果てれ - as in the song. Is 成り果つ the classical form of the modern 成り果てる?
     
  9. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Yes! With the classical conjunction ど, the verb is better off with the classical conjugation.
     
  10. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    なるほど! :) Thanks
     
  11. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Yes I know. Sorry for my insufficient mention. Old ど differs to this case and must take another different 語尾変化. hoshiboshi, cut my mention of 'ど is one of the Japanese old words' when you read my post. It's a little unnecessary information.
     
  12. hoshiboshi Junior Member

    English - US
    Okay, I understand the meaning of "成り果てるけれども!" The shortened version just threw me off a bit.
    It's a bit confusing in songs when artists shorten words or make up their own abbreviations, because you can't look it up in a dictionary. I guess it's just something I have to get used to!
    みんなさん、ありがとうございます!
     
  13. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland
    I definitely sympathise here - the lack of spaces between "words" makes parsing and dictionary hunting in Japanese much harder! In this case, though, I may have been misleading in calling it an abbreviation - rather it is a classical/archaic (but equally complete, grammatically speaking) form.
     

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