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整理, 用意, 手配, 調整

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by adexx, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. adexx Senior Member

    English
    Hey guys,

    I'm in a state of confusion (again!). This time, it's the difference between 用意 & 手配 &調整. They all mean "arrangement/preparation" right? So, when to use which?
    Actually there's another word: 整理, but as I understand, it's mostly about arranging the physical order. Is it correct?

    Thanks.
     
  2. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    I'm sure that, as in English, they are interchangeable in certain situations, but from my understanding, here are the distinctions:

    用意(する) - prepare something (physically) for use or consumption (e.g. prepare a bath, prepare dinner, prepare a room)

    手配(する) - arrange something for use or acquisition (prepare and organize) (e.g. arrange catering for a party, arrange travel plans for a vacation, arrange concert tickets, arrange a rental car to pick you up)

    調整(する) - adjust something to a proper setting (e.g. adjust your seat, adjust your watch, adjust [tune] your instrument)

    整理(する) - organize/put in order (just like you said)


    日本人, これが間違いだと、正してくれてください。^_^

    -K
     
  3. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    We also use chōsē for adjusting/managing/negotiating an appointment or schedule. A few people need to attend a meeting. They have to pick a date from among candidate dates. This is more like a negotiating than adjusting a machine to best serve its purposes. 調整 can be used as a synonym for informal negotiation like smoothing out different opinions.

    We don't use 日本人 for appellation. It feels like "all Japanese." Use 日本人の人 or 日本人の方.

    間違いだと means that you know they are all mistaken. The proper conditional conjunction is なら.

    くれてください is a superfluous construction. ください is enough. 正す does mean to correct but implies correcting in sense of good and bad, not right and wrong. 直してください is better.
     
  4. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    More precisely, the difference between 用意 and 手配 is that 手配 in general implicate the third person(group) involved in its preparation while 用意 does not, as you translated "prepare" vs "arrange".
    車を用意します。
    車を手配します。​
    The former implies that you prepare a car yourself, or your company(or family or a group that you belong to) does. You could involve the third party for its preparation or for its driver, but you do not particularly mention it. On the other hand, the latter implies that you order a third party(or simply just someone not you) to get a car and/or its driver.
    チケットを用意します。
    チケットを手配します。​
    部屋を用意します。
    部屋を手配します。
    食事を用意します。
    食事を手配します。​
    I hope you can see why preparing a "bath" or "dinner" will more likely go well with 用意 instead of 手配.
    (Also note that 手配 is usually a business action, a secretary job, and you do not use this word for friends in most cases. Moreover, it has another meaning of issuing a criminal search order by the police.)

    The example for seat is probably better translated as 調節(する). Tuning usually uses 調音(する).
    The difference between 調整 and 調節 is that you 調整する by adjusting something that went wrong to a "proper" setting, while you 調節する by adjusting something (not broken nor gone wrong) to a "comfortable" or "desirable" setting.
    エアコンの温度を調整する
    エアコンの温度を調節する
    The former is adjusting the thermo-system that went wrong. More like fixing.
    The latter is adjusting the setting to your preferred temperature.
    As 整 means to put things in the right order (整理する means to put things in order, where they are supposed to be), 調整 usually has one "correct" way of adjusting but 調節 depends on the users for the adjustment.

    調整 also means to "coordinate" as Flaminius-san says above. The same basic concept, you search a way to reach one "proper" conclusion out of the mess, which is often to negotiate and compromise among the party, for one harmonious result.

    To OP,
    Let me recommend you once again that you "prepare" a few examples of what you would like to say, not just listing similar words ;)
     
  5. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    !! These two answers are a treasure trove of information! Lol
    どうもありがとうございました!



    Haha, it felt wrong when I wrote it. I appreciate you correcting me. Would 日本人の皆さん work as well?


    Again, a rookie mistake, and I knew better. I tried to make it sound more humble, but I suppose it just sounds more ridiculous, lol.


    Could you not personally arrange something for someone else? Especially if you're, say, the secretary? E.g.:

    私は、君のために車を手配しました。

    ...or would you always use 用意 in this instance? And if that's the case, are these two words (in this context) essentially synonymous with the difference in use being who the agent is?

    To my non-native perception, it seems that "私は、君のために車を用意しました" would mean that you did things like clean the car, program the GPS, filled the gas tanks, etc.


    Thank you for everything else, though. I've learned much more than I thought I would when I replied to this thread. ^_^

    -K
     
  6. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    You could say that, but 「私は」and 「君のために」don't seem to fit well since 「私は~しました」 is more formal, and 「君のために」is more informal. The only case to use this line I can think of is, maybe, a rich man arranging a car for his young mistress for her special day when he cannot come...? I don't know. Maybe you need to give more context to it.
    Remember that 手配, in other word, 手配り(てくばり) is to give an instruction to "someone else" to prepare something.
    「私は君のために車を用意しました」would sound like he bought(or rented) a car for this person to drive, but it would need some context too.
     
  7. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    I apologize, I suppose a more politeness level consistent statement would be:

    俺は、君のために車を手配した。(Perhaps, I arranged to have a car pick up my brother from the airport.)

    or, to your boss, Suzuki-san

    (私は、)鈴木さんのために車を手配しました。(Likewise, I arranged to have a car pick up my boss from the airport.)

    Do these make more sense with the implied contexts?

    -K
     
  8. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Hmm? I don't get it. Who is picking "you" up? Who is "君" in here? Are you calling your own brother "君"?

    First of all, you hardly call your boss with さん (It would be very rude).
    Am "I" supposed to be Mr. Suzuki's secretary? Who am "I" saying this sentence to? In what situation?
    (I don't think we would say のために very often and it needs context....)
     
  9. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    はい、ごめん。I explained poorly.

    In the first sentence, I am talking to my brother, who I arranged a car for. (Would お前 or あんた be more appropriate?)

    In the second sentence, I am talking to my boss, and I am his secretary or other subordinate. (Would 課長 be a better option? or 鈴木さま? [or is that too much?])


    面白い...
    What would be a better manner of indicating that you did something for someone?


    I hope this isn't getting too off-topic. The 手配する question is still the central point.

    ありがとう,
    -K
     
  10. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    After reading several other examples, would に alone be a better substitute for のために to use with 手配する?

    -K
     
  11. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    It depends on the relationship though. You can of course use "君" for your brother when you and your brother have a big age difference, for example, when you are a lot older than your brother and treating him like your own child but not much too close. (I know a friend of mine gets called "君" from her big brother who is more than a dozen yrs older than she, but it is very rare.)
    お前 is probably more common, but あんた would not be used. Usually names are used for younger ones and お兄ちゃん、兄さん、兄貴 etc would be used for older brothers.
    Back to the main topic, the natural sentence would be (お前に)車を手配しておいたよ in a certain situation like you ordered your servant/butler or someone working under you at your company like 部下 to arrange a car for your brother.

    Job titles are always good to call your superiors with, but さま will never be used.
    So, 鈴木課長(のため)にお車を手配し(ておき)ました or 手配しております would be fine.

    It depends. Generally speaking, てやる/てあげる(vs. てくれる&てもらう) is most often used, but in a sentence like this, I don't find it natural either, and のために could be even better...I cannot really say what is best without contexts, really.

    One thing to note is that saying "あなたのために" or "てあげる" is often pushy in Japanese, like showing your expectation to be thanked and I'm afraid it is not very polite in our culture. You do something for someone, but this someone may not like it and may not want to thank you for it, but since you are asking to be thanked by saying this phrase, you make him/her thank you against his/her real feeling, you know? I think I have explained this a bit in another thread regarding "for you" somewhere in these forums, but I forgot where I mentioned it.
    Anyways, for the first sentence of you arranging a car for your brother, you could surely say ”お前に車を手配しといてやったよ" (I have arranged a car for you" using てやる.
     
  12. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    今、分かりました。One final thing that's still bugging me: 手配する really exclusively refers to an arrangement made by a secretary, servant, etc.?

    If "お前に車を手配しといた" implies that I had a subordinate make the arrangements and "お前に車を用意しといた" implies that I got a car for him to use (e.g. I rented a car for him), what verb would you use to indicate that arrangements were made for a car to pick him up (as in the first sentence) but also indicate that you, the speaker, made those arrangements yourself? From my understanding now, 手配する is strictly the business of some sort of underling, and "私はxxを手配した" means that I got one of my employees to make the arrangement for xx. What verb is there for the rest of us when we make these kinds of arrangements ourselves?

    -K
     
  13. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Yup roughly. If I do, 用意 is preparation, 調整 is arrangement/adjustment. 手配 is just to do something. I'd choose 'manage'. 整理 is the most difficult to say..it can suggest also not physical one, too. (The link would be better than my explanation.)

    Remember collocation matters; an object controls the verb you choose. See:
    車を用意する
    車を手配する are good.
    車を調整する sounds like you're fixing the car.
    車を整理する sounds...? We don't say so lol.
     
  14. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    No, but it is usually a job coordinated/organized and "ordered" by someone to his/her 目下, which makes me picture certain limited situations like business scenes.
    If you find other situations using 手配する, then there should be some contexts but I cannot think of one at the moment.

    Now, this is getting harder and harder...
    Well, for example, if I were to pick up my brother myself, I'd say 車を出す. If I were to arrange a car to pick him up when I myself am not going, I'd say 迎えをやる or 迎えを用意する. In casual conversation, I might say 足を用意する meaning "prepare a ride".
    I'm afraid the example is not very good here, because 車を手配する or 用意する may sound like my brother is driving it instead of being picked up by it, though it could mean what you want to mean with certain contexts. リムジン/タクシー/バスを手配する or 用意する may be better.

    By the way, in Japanese a word "you" - be it お前 or あなた - is usually avoided as much as possible, unless the speaker wants/needs to say it, or maybe it is the way the speaker always calls this person.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  15. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    It seems to me that 整理する means either to organize the constituent parts of something (e.g. 部屋を整理する) or to organize multiple things (e.g. 本を整理する). With this second meaning, could this scenario be possible? Let's say you work at a car dealership, and cars have been test-driven then re-parked in spots they weren't originally in. At the end of the day, your boss wants you to put the cars back in the parking spots where they belong.

    He says: "車を整理してください".

    Does it makes sense in this case?


    ごめん。I was simply using it for clarity in the example sentence to translate as much English to Japanese and back as possible. ^_~


    車を出す confuses me, chiefly because of 出す. Perusing the definitions in several dictionaries, I see "to send, to dispatch" and "to provide", which would make me think "車を出す" would mean to "send" or "provide" a car (to pick him up or for him to use). Which definition of 出す is being used here to indicate that I am the one picking him up? or is this simply a stock phrase I should remember? (I also see "車を出す" meaning "to start a car", but I'm sure that'd be clarified with context.)

    On the flip side, many examples I see with 迎え seem to indicate that the speaker is doing this themselves:

    迎えにいきます - I'll come and get you.
    私は5時に彼を迎えに行くつまりです。 - I'll pick him up at 5:00.
    6時にホテルに車で迎えてください - Please pick me up at the hotel at 6:00 (I know this one uses 迎える - does that change the meaning much here? For instance, would "6時にホテルに車で迎えに来てください" have the same meaning?)

    Meanwhile, the one sentence that indicates that someone else is doing the picking up nominalizes 迎えにいく and specifies 誰か (I'm assuming to indicate that the speaker will not be doing the picking up):

    誰かお宅へ車で迎えに行くよう手配しておきましょうか。 - I'll arrange for someone to pick you up at your home.

    I noticed the fact that you used "迎え" as opposed to "迎え", which the examples I found use. Your second phrase, "迎えを用意する" makes sense to me. But what is it about "迎えをやる" that suggests that the speaker is sending someone else to do it? Is it the を particle? or is this like 出す above where I'm not seeing the correct definition? or is this another stock phrase that I should just memorize?

    I agree that リムジン、タクシー、and バス help to avoid the confusion about who's driving. Is there a word in Japanese, aside from リムジン and タクシー, that indicates a car that is always driven by a professional (but is not strictly a limo or a taxi)?

    -K
     
  16. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Very nice:thumbsup: You know something that we have to focus on. 整理する suggests a manual job as adexx said 'it's mostly about arranging the physical order'. If you want to 'push' the cars with your hands, that's okay and I won't stop you. But your boss can say '車を動かしてくれ。';)

    BTW, 車を整理してください isn't so weird in this car dealership's case. I mean that's understandable in a specific case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  17. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    よかった! I will keep the manual (手でする) nature of 整理する in mind. ^_^

    ありがとう、
    -K
     
  18. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    It is indeed a colloquial expression for "to give (someone) a ride". It is probably from "pulling out" to get on the road, but not sure.

    迎える and 迎えに行く/来る are different verbs. The example sentence you gave is incorrect and it should be 迎えに来てください instead.

    やる means "to send". (someone)を迎えにやる is fine too.
    For 迎えに行く/来る, the main verb 行く/来る suggests that the actor "goes/comes" to welcome the person, instead of "send"ing a ride for him/her.

    Like I've said, it is too hard to come up with exact terms when you see no situations or stories behind. You can always ask when you bump into a certain word, but till then, I don't think I could help you more, besides, this is going too off-topic now.
     
  19. adexx Senior Member

    English
    Wow this is getting complicated. Thank you all for the detailed explanation & the useful discussion.

    Actually I wanted to discuss these words within a certain situation, it'd be easier I know. But it's just that I came across these words in different cases which I do not remember clearly, and the only impression I got is that they almost mean the same, that's why I want to have a general comparison. Sorry about that.

    Anyway, from all of your posts above, I think I've grasped the idea of these words. One small matter remains though.
    Tonky san, you explained that 手配 sounds more like business & with the involvement of a third party service. So in case I want to say "arrange/prepare" something with the involvement of a third party service, but not in a business context, rather, in informal situation (maybe with my friends), can I understand that I should avoid this word and find other expressions? (For example, in case of "car", the alternative would be 迎えを用意する ?)
    Let me give some examples this time :
    - Let me arrange the party for you (I myself will do it). -> パーティーを用意しようか?
    - Let me arrange (through a third party) the party for you. -> パーティーを ... ?
    - Should I arrange hotels for the guests? ->ホテルを...?
    (all in a casual context)

    Tks
     
  20. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Yes, indeed you can say 手配する for the last two, when you call the hotel/catering service company to "order" things to do.
    Now, I really hate to say this, but the first one パーティーを用意する does not sound natural... maybe simply パーティーをする or パーティーをしてあげる (to say "for you"). Possibly パーティを企画する/計画する for organizing it. My brain seems to have stopped working >.>
     
  21. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    すみません。I have a bad habit of this. But I appreciate everything that you've taught me.


    Did you mean "without" above? Seems like a typo. Forgive me if I am mistaken.

    -K
     
  22. adexx Senior Member

    English
    Tonky san,

    Thanks. But in this case does 手配 sound too formal? Since you explained before that it is usually associated with business context (I just want to use this to a friend)?

    Kyrintethron,
    It was not a typo. I was talking about a third party's arrangement (which is the case for 手配), but because Tonky said that this word was mostly business, so I was wondering which word to use in case of a casual situation.
     
  23. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    Do you mean to have it arranged by a casual acquaintances? E.g. having your friends plan the party? Or do you mean having a third party service plan a casual occasion? If it's the latter, I believe when Tonky said 手配する is used in business contexts, she meant that it's commonly used in business contexts, because you have a subordinate, like your secretary, make the arrangement for you. But I think you could also use it for casual arrangements as well, which is why she said you can use 手配する when you have a company organize a party for you.

    (Hope I'm not mistaken, lol.)

    -K
     
  24. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Aww, okay, 手配 itself is not formal nor informal, but the action or procedure itself is rather formal, a part of business.
    When you are calling the hotel or a catering company, you are their customer and you order them to do something for you (and they charge you). When you are a customer, they are working for you (when you want it done for someone else), and you will be regarded as 目上 and the people working at the hotel or the catering company as 目下 at this exact situation.
     
  25. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Yup the basic/primary idea of 整理 is manual nature. Based on this idea, 整理 can cover another variation as shown in (2): not manual nature.

    When you say 手配する, this is to get a necessary thing (1). When you say パーティを手配する, this implies that you don't have tools/space/methods, so you're going to arrange/manage it. 車を手配する is as well. This is to get a necessary thing: you don't have a car, so you need to contact a car-rental agent or else. So contacting an agent/third party is just the 'second step'.

    Then パーティを用意する? This means that you're able to plan/arrange a party by yourself.
     
  26. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    But the service they provide you with can be "casual"/"fun" (e.g. arranging parties, wedding receptions, graduation celebrations, etc.) as well as business (e.g. organizing space for a convention, preparing a conference room for a meeting, reserving rooms for business travelers, etc.), ね?


    Does it necessarily imply that you don't have the means to accomplish the task? What if you just don't want to, or plain don't feel like it? For instance, you could go pick up your boss yourself, but you'd rather hire a car service to do it. Or you could plan a party, but it's easier to have a professional service do it. Or you want reservations for 10 at a restaurant. You can easily do that with a phone call, but you don't want to be bothered, so you call your concierge service, like American Express, and ask them to do it for you.

    Would these examples still use 手配する, even though you have the tools, space, or method to do it?

    -K
     
  27. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    I slightly sense 手配 'a special arrangement', and this is good when the thing you want is farther whichever you have them all: tools, space, and method.

    In the case that you have to prepare a car for your boss, and you have your car but you don't want him to get on the car. You can say, おれの車じゃいやだから、レンタカーを手配したよ! You say you made a phone call to a car-rental service/you requested the service: any special action. This 手配 is replaceable to 用意, because they're synonyms, and the goal is the same: you have to get a car for him. Notice 手配 doesn't include your unwillingness lol. Sorry if my explanation isn't sufficient and post again!
     
  28. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    よく分かった! This instance of interchangeability between 手配 and 用意 makes these ideas easier to use as well.

    ありがとう、
    -K
     
  29. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Been thinking on this, and maybe it is better to use 準備する for parties, yet another similar word!
    準備と用意の違いについて
    Probably this is why 用意 doesn't sound quite natural when you offer to arrange a party for your friend. Once it was already organized and you know what you (and everyone else) are doing with each and every step for the preparation, then you can finally say パーティーの用意をする afterwards (but before the party) for each routine.

    Yes, correct.

    Here is a well-written blog article I found regarding the definition of 手配.
    http://bjnclub.blogspot.jp/2012/06/blog-post_21.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  30. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    I see. Those are very interesting (and informative) links. 企画, 計画, and 準備 are for the organizing/planning phase, and 用意 is for the execution phase when you're following the plans that you made.

    -K
     
  31. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Hmmm not exactly. The difference is what you prepare for.
     
  32. kyrintethron Senior Member

    English - America
    Heh I wasn't a very good student and skimmed over parts of the pages. On second reading (with proper translation :p) I see the difference, lol.


    And now I better understand what you mean by this.

    ありがとう、
    -K
     

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