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Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by yme, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. yme

    yme Junior Member

    English - USA
    When a Japanese professor explains Japanese grammar in the Japanese language, do they use words such as:

    Words such as these only exist to study English using the Japanese language?

    I am interested in Japanese words that can only be used to explain Japanese grammar, only be used to explain English grammar, and can be used to explain both grammars.

    thank you.
  2. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    受動態 and 目的語 are used in papers.

    代名詞 is usually 指示詞 or ソコアド

    進行形, 現在形 and 過去形 are frequently seen on the Internet.
    But I think they are more likely to be referred as シテイル形, スル形, シタ形(the forms) or 進行相, 現在時制, 過去時制(tense aspect) in papers.

    Other terms only exist for English, I think.
  3. yme

    yme Junior Member

    English - USA
    Do you mean that the words, 「受動態」 and 「目的語」, themselves are used in "papers"? Or do you mean that the 文型 of 「受動態」 and 「目的語」are used in "papers".
    What do you mean "papers"? Do you mean "newspapers"?

    I do not see 「ソコアド」 in any online dictionaries.

    Can you please show me one website that discusses Japanese 動詞時制 that is explained in Japanese?

    thank you.
  4. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    As you mentioned "Japanese professor", I suppose you are talking about the academic use of these terms.
    I mean these terms are used in academic papers.
    The concepts exist in Japanese, too.

    Have a search at google scholar, and you will find many useful information.
  5. Tonky Senior Member

    It's a typo for こそあど.

    Note that terms used by 国語学/学校文法 and 日本語学/日本語文法(JSL) are different, or used differently.
    (and terms used by each researcher vary as well.)
    ている形、た形、て形、辞書形、ます形 and such are all for JSL only.

    In general, refer to the below links.
  6. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    As for the 動詞時制, I did not see any website explaining it well. It's a very hard subject. There are some description in wiki. You need to read professional books.

    If you are interested in the usage rather than the linguistic concept, 庭三郎さん has an awesome explanation in his 現代日本語文法概説.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  7. yme

    yme Junior Member

    English - USA
    I do not mean linguistics at all.
    I am only interested in vocabulary that normal 中学生 know.
    To study English grammar, 中学生 surely know 冠詞、現在分詞、関係代名詞、etc.
    To study Japanese grammar, I assume 中学生 know 固有名詞、過去進行形、etc.?

    I wonder if Japanese 中学生 are taught that these equations are roughly the same:
    "write" = 現在形 = 「書く」 = simple present tense
    "was writing" = 過去進行形 = 「書いていた」 = past continuous tense
    "was written" = 受動態 = 「書かれた」= passive voice
    "he" = 代名詞 = 「彼」 = pronoun

    I assume these moderate parallels are used to teach English grammar to Japanese students? But, concepts such as 不定冠詞、過去進行完了形、etc. are the nightmares of Japanese children everywhere.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  8. YangMuye Senior Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    I think Japanese students learn 学校文法, mainly for studying classic Japanese.

    書く: 「書く」の終止形
    書いていた: 「書く」の連用形+接続助詞「て」+「いる」の連用形+助動詞「た」の終止形
    書かれた: 「書く」の未然形+助動詞「れる」の連用形+助動詞「た」の終止形
  9. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Teacher may use 固有名詞 in teaching Japanese to 中学生s but 過去進行形 is NOT a term of instruction.

    English teachers explain e.g., what 現在形 is by equating write and 書く. (By the way, this one does more harm than good because 書く usually refers to the future.) Except 代名詞, none of the terms are used in the paedagogical Japanese grammar.
  10. yme

    yme Junior Member

    English - USA
    Thank you so much.

    Teaching English grammar in English has a very well-defined curriculum. French does as well. But, Japanese seems not to, and I find that strange. In middle school, I was forced to memorize all the rules of grammar and syntax. And, I was trained in how to 品詞分解 and diagram sentences. But, a curriculum for young students made by 文部省 for teaching Japanese grammar in Japanese just does not seem to exist. I will continue searching for the material written at the 中学生 level (not 博士 level) cause I'm not so good at Japanese :thumbsup:. thanks.
  11. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    The Japanese Ministry of Education, Science and a Few Other Things has decidely a well-defined curriculum for teaching the Japanese grammar with all sorts of technical terms and ideas, graphs. Did you read #8 by YangMuye?

    Apparently the paedagogical Japanese grammar endorsed by MEXT is not for preparing students for foreign languages or opening up their eyes to general linguistics. Even so, it is not fair to criticize it for lacking concepts such as 過去進行形. The Japanese tense-aspect system is, well, very aspect-oriented and terms of tense such as past progressive is not very helpful.

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