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Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by 涼宮, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)

    What is the function of 巡る in 独立を巡る戦い? The title of the episode is translated as ''The Fight for Independence'', but none of the meanings of 巡る fits there. Is this を巡る related to を巡って (concerning/about/in regard to)? If so, why is it in the infinitive and what is the specific nuance it has as opposed to other possible connectors like について、に関して,etc? :confused:

    どうぞ宜しくお願いします! :)
  2. Tonky Senior Member

    巡る originally means "go around, circle", "surround", "circulate" and so on.
    Here it means "surrounds".
    「独立を巡る」 in this sentence is modifying 戦い. (巡る takes the same form in both dictionary form and attributive.)
    So, direct translation would be, "the fight that surrounds (the) Independence (movement)", thus "the fight over/for independence".

    As for why we do not use 「~について」「に関して」 for this, you wouldn't say "the fight about Independence" or "the fight regarding Independence" in English either, especially for literary works, would you?
  3. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Yes see 5 in http://ejje.weblio.jp. Ah~ you know 巡る is a verb, and see this is noun + verb + noun (like noun 戦い + verb gerund* + objective 独立), whereas 'The Fight for Independence' is noun + prep + noun, which is smoother, simpler. But the verb insertion shown in the Japanese one isn't weird. Note that this Japanese 巡る isn't a preposition.
    *I'll have to use verb ~ing in English.

    This 巡る・・難しいなあ。「彼らは独立を巡り戦っています。」 is natural and I slightly sense 'require'. But I'm not convinced!
  4. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    めぐる is indeed the citation form of めぐって, which can mean "over" as in "a dispute over subsidies" in addition to the meanings you listed. In other words, めぐる is about something that the concerned parties have different attitudes for. A party in the war wants independence and another tries to prevent it.

    について and に関して (by the way, they need の in order to modify a noun) are less specific. I don't think 独立についての戦い is grammatical.
  5. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Thank you all of you! :)

    I know that について wouldn't make sense there, but I proposed it because I thought that を巡る meant the same as を巡って. The syntax isn't the problem for me but rather the usage of 巡る there. How would the meaning change if I said 独立のための戦い?

    Thanks again!
  6. Tonky Senior Member

    I think Flaminius-san has already nailed it above for that explanation.
    So, 「独立のための」 would make it sound like a one-sided story for those who want Independence.

    We use them both 「~を巡る」 and 「~を巡っての」 (with の to modify nouns) and the difference between the two is minor.


    It does give me some different air, possibly due to the hidden aspect of the te-form, but in general it seems they are replaceable with each other.
  7. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    I select への. 独立への戦い

    In 独立への戦い and 独立を巡る戦い, there's no difference in the writer's intention to describe the fight. As you already know, this is how to connect two concepts (nouns) 戦い and 独立.
  8. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Now it's clear, thanks again everybody! :)

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