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祝福

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by Ouyang, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Can I say: 我祝福你?or it should be followed by an object, as: 我祝福你生活快乐。
     
  2. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Yes, you can say 我祝福你 on its own, if the context is appropriate.
    PS: You can look for a Chinese song with this title: 默默祝福你
    It's a slow song, good for learning Chinese :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  3. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    谢谢.............
     
  4. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    In 我祝福你, 你 is the object of the verb 祝福.
    There are ditransitive verbs that take both a direct object and an indirect object. Such verbs include:
    I give you a book. 给/送
    I send you a book. 寄/送
    I wish you good luck. 我你好运
    我(subject) 祝 (verb) 你 (direct object) 生活快乐 (indirect object).

    In my dialect, 祝 is ditransitive (allowing two objects), whereas 祝福 takes only one object. 我祝福你生活快乐 sounds like a foreigner's speech. The reason that 祝福 takes only the direct object is 福 "gook luck", an implicit, indirect object. 我祝福你生活快乐 is seen as having three objects: (1) 福, (2) 你, (3) 生活快乐, and therefore grammatically wrong from a pedantic point of view.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  5. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    I don't think this analysis is correct, Skatinginbc. It's quite common to see another element after the direct object:
    祝福你万事如意!
    我祝福他们一切都好.
    每个人都欢呼着祝福那个男孩生日快乐。

    For all practical purposes, you should consider 祝福 a ditransitive verb.
     
  6. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Agreed. That's why I said in my post that it is true "in my dialect" and "from a pedantic point of view". All three examples you gave run the risk of being corrected by a teacher of Chinese literature. For instance,
    祝福你万事如意:warn:!祝你万事如意:tick:
    我祝福他们一切都好:warn:.我祝他们一切都好:tick:
    每个人都欢呼着祝福那个男孩生日快乐:warn:。每个人都欢呼祝那男孩生日快乐:tick:
    祝福 was initially an intransitive verb meaning 祈神赐福 or 祝告祈福. A preposition was needed if an object was mentioned, for instance, 我祝福, 其祝福. Gradually it became a monotransitive verb, which takes only one object (e.g., 我祝福父亲的生日).
    That being said, it doesn't take away the fact that 祝福 is sometimes used as a ditransitive verb in casual speech.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    You're still in another place, another time period, Skatinginbc. Wake up and see the change!
    The examples I gave are by native Chinese speakers and you can easily find many like them, and they are not just in casual speech:
    儿女们祝福父母健康长寿
    母亲默默地祝福儿子一路平安
    朋友们热情地祝福他事业获得成功
    在新年来临之际,祝福你平安、快乐、幸福!

    Please do not use your dialect as the standard to correct others, as this would seriously confuse learners!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  8. baosheng Senior Member

    Canada
    Canada, English
    I think that Skatinginbc might be saying that 祝福 cannot take two other objects (since it already has a direct object) from a very strict grammatical point of view, in standard Chinese as well as his dialect (although the rule seems more enforced in his dialect?). It makes sense to me anyway, if you think of the grammar. Grammatical correctness has a spectrum, I think... there are rules which most people follow/agree with, like for example [that 'ain't' is not standard English] but others like ['singular they' where it is used by almost everyone, yet still considered a mistake in formal writing by some].

    Also, the way people talk/write, although by definition correct from a descriptive point of view, may not always be considered correct according to the grammar books (even if they sometimes be old/dated/antiquated rules/ones which no one follows :p). I think Skatinginbc may just be very precise in his analysis (pedantic, as he is saying). I'm not sure if it's accurate, but I did a 百度 search for "祝福父母健康“ vs “祝父母健康” and the 祝 phrase got almost 3 times the amount of hits. Perhaps other speakers might also feel the same way about the rule.. ? (being a non-native speaker, I have no idea, but I've always liked to follow grammar rules, even if they are sometimes old-fashioned ones!)
     
  9. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Yes, I don't mind someone is being pedantic or whatever, but they should keep that to themself and not go round the forum correcting everyone else. By admitting that one is being pedantic does not grant one the right to do so either. For a public forum, it's inconsiderate and disrupting...
     
  10. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    I also think 儿女们父母健康长寿 is better Chinese. Although 祝福 is not bad Chinese either.
     
  11. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Youngfun, no one has ever argued that 祝福 is better than 祝. Its use in place of 祝 is an undeniable fact, that is what I was trying to say to Skatinginbc, as he was again taking the topic into an uncalled-for direction (post #4).
     
  12. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    I think Skatinginbc was perhaps trying to correct 我祝福你生活快乐 in the first post. That also sounds a little bit weird to me (though acceptable).

    In modern Chinese, I think 祝福 has the meaning of a simple "wish" as well as "wish happiness". But 祝 and 祝福 are not the same.
    儿女们祝福父母健康长寿, 母亲默默地祝福儿子一路平安 are good to me. However, 朋友们热情地祝福他事业获得成功 and 在新年来临之际,祝福你平安、快乐、幸福! are questionable. I'm not saying they are wrong but personally I think they might not be good -- that can be an endless topic and I'm not going to get into it.

    It is a just tradition of (some) Chinese speakers to think about an appropriate word all day to make up the simplest sentence. So anything can be casual, and it is difficult to distinguish "good" and "correct". I'd suggest learners to be aware of these things, (not restricted to this forum) sometimes people correct mistakes simply because they are too picky, on the other hand sometimes all people keep saying a word but that can be a mistake after they realize that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  13. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Thank you all! I don't think Scatinginbc misled me in someway or other. Moreover, his explanation was very informative for me.

    Xiaolijie's comments also gave me information to ponder. No one was wrong in this case and there was nothing here in this thread somebody shouldn't have posted.

    Chinese language is very old and there are situation when there is no very distinctive difference between wrong (black) and right (white). Very often there is some gray zone. And it tends to be moving throughout the time and dialects. Dialects' norms also helps to understand so called standard language. So called because it is an artificial notion.

    By the way, what is your dialect Scatinginbc?
     
  14. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
     
  15. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Please explain to me why it sounds good for you
    母亲默默地祝福儿子一路平安

    and not quite good
    祝福你平安
    ?
     
  16. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    Below is my very personal opinion, may not be exactly correct.

    祝福你平安 is fine. But 在新年来临之际,祝福你平安、快乐、幸福 is a little bit awkward. First, for me 祝福 is more emotional and "quiet", and it is a word mostly to describe other people's behaviours for me. I'd use 祝愿 or 祝 is the subject is 我. Second, 幸福 actually covers 快乐, so it may not be a good idea to list these things in parallel (although you can find 幸福快乐 as a single word frequently). After reading Skatinginbc's posts, I feel 幸福 also intersects with 祝福, which makes the sentence more cumbersome.

    For the other sentence 朋友们热情地祝福他事业获得成功, I don't think 热情地 is a good word to describe 祝福. Also 事业获得成功 sounds very awkward. I'd say 朋友们纷纷祝福他事业有成.

    Again, I'm not saying these sentences are wrong. Perhaps most sentences made by native speakers in daily life are at this level.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  17. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Ok, I got it. Thank you.
     
  18. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp] "I" + [/FONT]祝福[FONT=&amp] "give my blessing to" + [/FONT][FONT=&amp] "you"[/FONT][FONT=&amp], where [/FONT][FONT=&amp] is the object of [/FONT]祝福[FONT=&amp]. [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp] "I" + [/FONT]祝福[FONT=&amp] "gave my blessing at" + [/FONT]父亲的生日[FONT=&amp]"father's birthday", where [/FONT]父亲的生日 [FONT=&amp]is the object of [/FONT]祝福[FONT=&amp].
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]祝福 is "monotransitive" (allowing only one object) because there is already an imbedded, covert object [/FONT][FONT=&amp] (blessing) within the verb [/FONT]祝福[FONT=&amp]. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]My “dialect” (namely, [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Guoyu[/FONT] 國語[FONT=&amp]) is in fact one of the official forms of Mandarin, not [/FONT]方言 [FONT=&amp](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese). I didn’t claim my own speech as “the standard”. On the contrary, I deliberately minimized my position with expressions like “in my dialect” and “pedantic”. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]Just as some English speakers prefer “[/FONT][FONT=&amp]the reason is that” over “the reason is because”, so do some Mandarin speakers prefer [/FONT]祝你生日快乐[FONT=&amp]” over “[/FONT]祝福生日快乐[FONT=&amp]”. My post #4 was simply to point out such facts. [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  19. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Scatinginbc,

    If I got you right:

    祝福男孩生日快乐 has 2 obj

    祝福父亲的生日 has 1 obj
    ?

    I thought that the latter also had 2 obj before you posted last reply.
     
  20. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    It definitely has only 1 obj.
    FYI, although this is possibly used in some places, it doesn't sound correct for me, because we only 祝福 to a person, not a birthday.
     
  21. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Agreed. It doesn't sound correct to me, either:). I got that sentence from 互动百科 (http://www.baike.com/wiki/祝福) as well as from the self-claimed "中国最权威最专业的海词词典" (http://dict.cn/I say the benediction to my father's birthday_2E) with an unnatural English translation "I say the benediction to my father's birthday" (Note: "I say the benediction in the cathedral" :tick:, "I say the blessing at my father's birthday" :tick:, "I say the benediction to my father's birthday" :cross:).

    Based on Tartou's and my own intuition, I will be so bold as to claim that we can only 祝福 a person, that is:
    祝福 = (say/give one's blessing to) + somebody
     
  22. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    Just have a look at your own writing, Skatinginbc!
    You took the sentence to support your "theory" and when someone else got confused and questioned its acceptability, you turned round and criticised it. As if that was not bad enough, you went on criticising the English translation of the sentence. Do you really know what you're doing ?!!

    So that you don't continue to confuse others, please think twice every time you post!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  23. baosheng Senior Member

    Canada
    Canada, English
    Just to add another opinion:
    I asked some of my roommates (who are all native Chinese speakers) about this and one said that both were OK. One said that were both were OK but still had a preference for 祝 + somebody + something opposed to 祝福 + somebody something. And one was extremely opposed to 祝福 + someone something (since 福 is already an object (although hidden)).

    It looks like different people have different preferences for this grammar point (as is often the case in English as well) :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  24. Ouyang Junior Member

    Russian
    Thank you all guys. It gave me much more understanding!
     

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