突出している

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by Shatin, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Shatin Junior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    ここまで閲覧が突出しているトピックなので


    Now there is the noun 突出 【とっしゅつ】; and also the verb 突出す 【つきだす】, the pronunciations of which are quite different. (In fact there is also the noun 突出し 【つきだし】.)


    1. How should one treat 突出している, as noun 突出 + verb している? Or the いる form of the verb 突出す?

    2. Accordingly, how should 突出している be pronounced? とっしゅつしている? つきだしている?

    In fact this is just one example of several similar sentences I've read recently. I wonder if there a general rule for this kind of noun + している ambiguity where the noun part could possibly be interpreted as part of a compound verb.
     
  2. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    You're an excellent finder..we need to do step by step. Let's put 突出し aside, which is merely a noun.

    A noun made of two kanji combination can easily be a verb by adding する. Let's set している to the simple form する here temporarily. You know 突出する. But what's 突き出す?This is a plain, simplified Japanese verb more than 突出する. See 攻撃する、休息する、破壊する, and they are 攻める、休む、壊す. Well, the latter three are simple, aren't they?

    How to use these two? We do randomly, according to one's choice. But generally, you'd better use simple one when you want to make your expression simple.

    Your question has several topics―している in 突出している―why it's a present participle*, and why the speaker is using 突出している, not 突き出している. And we need to answer you about 2. But 今日はここまで!I will post later, because too much information will confuse you.

    *To tell the truth, here, 突出している is an adjective. I will talk you later.
     
  3. Schokolade Senior Member

    Japanese
    Is 突出している an adjective? Japanese adjectives are something like かわいい (i-adjective/形容詞) or きれい-な (na-adjective/形容動詞), aren't they. 突出している looks to me like (a noun+) a verb and a subsidiary verb. Probably you meant to say "an adjectival clause" or "a relative clause" modifying the noun "トピック", no?

    Someone tell me if we have present participles in Japanese grammar? I'm confused.

    ---------------
    By the way, I'd read it as とっしゅつしている, because we say 閲覧(数)[えつらんすう]がとっしゅつする(exceed) but not 閲覧(数)がつきだす(stick out).
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  4. Shatin Junior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    frequency, it's much appreciated that you take the time to give me such thoughtful answers. I eagerly await the second part of your reply.
     
  5. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Thank you for comment. I'm excited! By the way, yesterday I said 'simplified' verbs. But I should have said that they are basic verbs. Sorry. Then, I'd like to start with talking about combination verb vs basic verb in your case: 突出する vs 突き出す.

    Your example mentions that many visitors have browsed the topic, so the frequency of page (topic) browsing is marking a higher point than the average level.

    ---- * ----

    Doesn't this look like 'sticking out' from the level? So 突出している means that sth is outstanding, remarkable. I guess you may already know. But why 突出している, not 突き出している?Communication would go better when we all use simpler verbs. Why do we have to choose?

    Because of its simplicity, 突き出す sounds like sth substantial is really physically sticking out from sth. The speaker is talking about the frequency, a little abstract one (difficult to explain, though): we tend to choose 突出する, which is not too concrete. But I have to say 'not always'..but chin up! I bet you'll understand gradually soon.

    Today's post has much information=3 Don't hesitate to post if you have any questions so far!
     
  6. Schokolade Senior Member

    Japanese
    I think these two groups are different in that the former are Sino-Japanese words, which use on-yomi and tend to sound more literary, whereas the latter are Japanese-origin words, which use kun-yomi and tend to sound more colloquial... like Latin/French loanwords versus Germanic words in the English language, maybe... I'm not claiming they can always be used interchangeably, by the way...
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  7. Shatin Junior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    Thanks for the explanations! One thing I'd like to have more clarifications on is if there is a preferred written form for 突き出す. According to the dictionary, all the forms are possible:

    突き出す; 突出す; 突きだす; つき出す; 突ん出す

    Is one form more correct than the others (e.g. as used in a newspaper)? Or are they all equally correct? For example, would all newspaper editors prefer 突き出す? Or one paper would prefer 突き出す, another paper would prefer 突出す as their house style?
     
  8. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Welcome! Okay..the best one is 突き出す. Others? Not recommended very much. I don't often see them.

    Don't you think 突出す is confusing, because it leads you (also us) to wonder つきだす or とっしゅつす. But とっしゅつする、突出する always has to be 突出する. Now you know you have to stop choosing とっしゅつす、突出す, and you choose and read it as つきだす. And 突出す is not often!
     
  9. Shatin Junior Member

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    That's good to know. I also like 突き出す best because it makes the pronunciation most obvious.
     
  10. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Yes, that's why it's the best!

    Next, about 突出している..do you know an adjective 突出した?e.g. 彼は突出した科学者である。Compared to this one, 突出している is focusing on 'Now it's outstanding', at the moment the speaker is talking about the topic. Note that they are not always interchangeable; it's difficult, but you may encounter the case similar to these two.

    In your example, sth that is outstanding (the frequency of browsing) is added. That makes the structure a little complex, but roughly understandable?
     

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