等 (歧义)

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by Razzle Storm, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. Razzle Storm

    Razzle Storm Senior Member

    Beijing
    English - America
    So I have a theory, that the word 等 does not often (almost never) have the same meaning as et cetera, despite the fact that it is often translated as etc. Here's why:

    栖霞组岩性可分为6部分,从下至上为梁山段、臭灰岩、下硅质岩、本部灰岩、上部硅质岩、顶部白云岩化灰岩等,时代属早二叠世早期,是一个海侵开始并持续扩大的阶段,经历了早期含煤的滨岸碎屑岩台地海环境向晚期正常海碳酸盐沉积转变的历程[28]。

    This is something I'm translating to be published in a scientific journal, and I'm curious as to what opinions the forum-goers have on its usage here. The 6 parts of the Chihsia Formation are already all listed, but there is still a 等 here. What do you think it means? What would be a good translation for it?

    我认为“等”字虽然往往被译为英文的etc.,但略有不同。以上的这段话是我正在翻译的,我想跟大家探讨这个问题。尽管这句话已经列出了所述的6部分,但仍然写了“等”字。它在这儿能有什么意思呢?大家有没有比较恰当的译法?你们觉得在这儿用“等”字合适吗?有没有语法错误?

    提前感谢大家的指导。

    Moderator's Note: Several threads have been merged to create this one.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2014
  2. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    筆誤而已。
     
  3. Ghabi

    Ghabi Moderator

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    也未必是笔误。有时候即使全部项目都列了出来,人们还是喜欢加个「等」字。似乎不少人都有这个习惯。当然翻译的时候要小心。:)
     
  4. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie MOD

    UK
    English (UK)
    等 can be thought of as having two different usages, one of which is to indicate the end of a list. Some examples:
    - 长江、黄河、黑龙江、珠江等四大河流
    - 我喜欢足球、篮球、排球等三项运动。
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  5. Geysere Senior Member

    Chinese - China
    Sorry but I think this usage is unacceptable :( We can understand it but it's not supposed to be used this way, especially when you have already specify the number of objects. However, in the case of the geology paper, if I'm not 100% sure that there's only 6 parts of the Chihsia Formation (maybe some are not yet discovered?) or if I know there are subdivisions for each part, then I will keep the "等".
    Anyway, as people have said, it's also a matter of personal preferences. You may ask the author directly if you're really serious about that...:rolleyes:
     
  6. Razzle Storm

    Razzle Storm Senior Member

    Beijing
    English - America
    Oh, thank you. I was just curious because I commonly see it as "etc.". I can understand 等 in the sense that there are subdivisions of each section.

    Thanks!
     
  7. Dingdongdong Senior Member

    Bân-lâm-gú /Chinese China
    以下例子来自《英语笔译实务2级》(外文出版社)Unit One:
    1. 她21岁时成为一名美国医生,曾应聘在费城、华盛顿、纽约等地的医院工作。
    2. 1905年金雅梅再度回到祖国,先后在成都、上海等地行医,……
    相同的“等地”不同的理解:
    译文1:When she was 21 she became a doctor, and worked in hospitals first in Philadelphia, and then in Washington and New Work.
    2: In 1905, Jin Yamei came back to China and resumed her practice in Chengdu, Shanghai and some other places....

    这就产生一个关于“等”的复数涵盖范畴的问题,容易引起歧义。它既可做词煞尾,又能做“词延伸”(我自己的概念)。我自己的用法如下:
    词煞尾用法:
    1.在等字后面加上限定的数词+前面并列名词的类别,诸如人/国/地方等等,此时等字可以省略。常见于三个并列名词。比如:
    ①只有北京和上海两地比较为外国人所熟知。“两地”可以省略,我不确定“两地”前是否能加个等,个人认为没有该用法。
    ②北京、上海和广东(等)三地市是中国经济最发达的地方。
    ③关于巴比伦、古埃及、古印度和古代中国(等)四大文明古国的说法只在中国流行,并没得到世界范围的历史学界的公认。
    词延伸用法:
    2. A 直接在名词后加等字直接表复数 B 在等字后面加上所限定名词的类别。AB 两类名词个数都不限。 C 等等的用法,限定的名词应等于或多于两个。(不确定)
    A 我等小老百姓就图个小富即安。/尔等放肆。/你等屁都不是。
    春天到了,公园里的桃花,迎春花,连翘等纷纷开放。
    B ①老毛等人的共产党,被老将称作共匪。
    ②北京和上海等一线城市形成了几个漩涡,将中国各地资源
    不断吞噬。
    ③出席会议的有习近平、李克强、 刘云山、汪洋等人。
    C 我的书架上有诗歌、哲学、历史等等的书籍。 比较—— 我的书架上有诗歌、哲学等/等等书籍。
    我书架上的书籍有诗歌、哲学、历史等等。 比较—— 我书架上的书籍有诗歌、哲学等/等等。
    如果限定的名词只有两个,个人倾向于“
    我的书架上有诗歌、哲学等书籍”。以及“我书架上的书籍有诗歌、哲学等等”。感觉这样比较自然。

    手头上没有系统的语法书(而且也怀疑到底现代汉语有这样的语法书吗?),以上都是根据经验总结。不知道各位有什么看法?你们的用法呢?
     
  8. BODYholic Senior Member

    Singapore
    Chinese Cantonese
    This 等 has nothing to do with pluralization. Here it means "我(这)等小老百..." = "像我这样的小老百...".

    Definition #6 and #7 from here pretty much answer all your questions.
     
  9. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    我看到这里已经不懂了……
    这两句有什么区别?
    第一句为什么不翻译出and some other places?
     
  10. stellari Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    I don't think there is an easy answer for your question, and which meaning 等 takes is purely contextual. Sometimes, it is impossible to know what it means in a sentence without further information. Debates regarding this problem have been around for decades. Take this statement from the criminal law for example: 对于故意杀人、强奸、放火、爆炸、投毒、抢劫等严重破坏社会秩序的犯罪分子,可以附加剥夺政治权利。Here 等 is ambiguous. We could infer that it indicates ellipsis from other clauses, but it's really hard to know what it exactly means just from this sentence.

    As for the two sentences about Dr. Kin, I think the meanings might be decided based on the actual experience of Kin, not from the sentences themselves.
     
  11. Dingdongdong Senior Member

    Bân-lâm-gú /Chinese China
    确实,如果不联系上下文,有时真不好判断“等”的涵盖范畴。所以这也给翻译工作带来了麻烦,译员不得不花时间(可能很多时间)来进行正确理解。所以,”规范”确实必不可少。说到我举的两个例子,原文是中文的,但即使联系上下文也没办法确定它们的准确意思,给本国读者(像我)造成误读,所以这类表达方式是我反对的。因此,我自己总结了用法,虽然不完善,但希望对大家都有些用处。

    你引述的例子:对于故意杀人、强奸、放火、爆炸、投毒、抢劫等严重破坏社会秩序的犯罪分子,可以附加剥夺政治权利。 通过我自己的用法进行理解是可以解释的,意为:including, but not limited to 故意杀人、强奸、放火、爆炸、投毒、抢劫。 如果只表达限定的几种意思,我会这么说——(此处为中文破折号,怎么打出来?)对于故意杀人、强奸、放火、爆炸、投毒、抢劫等六种严重破坏……




    更正一下:如果只表达限定的几种意思,我会这么说——(此处为中文破折号,怎么打出来?)对于故意进行杀人、强奸、放火、爆炸、投毒、抢劫(等)六种严重破坏……。 等字可以省略。

    这论坛有没有一种字体能让中文省略号和破折号共存? —— …… 前一个是 arial black的字体,后一个是 system的字体。
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2013
  12. stellari Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    没错,我们自己可以坚持在列举后使用数目 + 量词来消除歧义。但是并没有规范要求必须这样做,而且很多人也并非这样做的。所以基于目前的情况,我认为没有方法能从语法的角度将两者区分开来。
     
  13. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    我自己也会坚持和stellari类似的原则,没事不要乱用等。除非有没列举出来的,否则加个等字有什么意义?除了造成歧义,没任何好处,纯属吃饱了撑的凑字数……
     
  14. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    我觉得中文的“等”不完全等于英语的etc.,有时候例子举完了还会加个“等”字……
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2014

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