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Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by utsubo, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. utsubo

    utsubo Junior Member

    Hello. I'm having some trouble trying to understand the meaning of the following sentence. It is about the Japanese way of expressing things, like a linguistic text. I need to translate it in Italian, but..the thing is I don't really understand what it means so..
    This is the sentence.
    Here is my attempt, but..it's like translating something without even knowing what I am saying!

    The expressions based on the interlocutor's prospective, seen from the speaker's point of view, like "this time it is decided I'm getting married" or "it is decided I'm moving", using "it is decided that..." instead of "I have decided that...", although it is something decided by the speaker, they (the expressions) can tell you whether this kind of situations have really occured naturally or not.

    It's not like I don't understand a single word, but it is the whole concept that I'm missing. I don't understand the point of the sentence. Anyone who wants to help?
    Thank you
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  2. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Umm...whichever, this 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は isn't a sufficient explanation. I didn't understand well, either. But I think the writer wants to say..

    (When you see me,) I (look to you) ended up getting married. I (look to you) ended up moving.

    Ahh..the writer may want to mention that Japanese likes to express as if something happened naturally instead of saying 'Eventually, I ended up getting married!'..I'm not sure, and this is my understanding of what the writer wants to say. But remember, この度、結婚することになりました eventually implies 'Eventually, I ended up getting married!' but this Japanese, using naru, sounds like to avoid a very direct announcement.

    I humbly suggest you, I guess you need to keep 'kotoni suru' and 'naru' Japanese in the translation.. By using 'naru', not using 'kotoni suru', in Japanese you can express the situation as if it happened very naturally..
    If you have more questions, post again!
  3. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I don't understand 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現 by itself either. Where did you see this expression? Anyway, based on the example sentences given, here is my take.

    This phrase is probably to be parsed as:
    The kind of expressions under discussion is not just "based on the interlocutor's prospective" but thought [by the speaker] to be based on the interlocutor's prospective.

    Person A is getting married. They are now reporting it to someone else, B. A thinks, "If I say to B that I am getting married, they would probably say, 'Oh, wonderful. Aが結婚することになったのか.'"

    In other words, A thinks ahead how B is likely to capture the event that A is about to report.
  4. blutorange2 Junior Member

    Just my two cents.

    He's talking about the ことになる construction. What he wants to say is:
    Ultimately it was your decision to take this action. But when you use "なる" instead of "する", it sounds/feels as if had happened naturally (or not really in your control). In other words, rather than the the actual meaning of the sentence, it changes how you feel about the situation.

    You can read more about this, just google for ”ことになる” or ”になる にする”. Here is what the 明鏡国語辞典 says:

    自己の視点から見た(to view from the point of view of oneself) 相手の発想(the aite's conception) に基づく表現。
    What I make of this is
    >> "ni naru" is an expression, based upon another person's point of view of how they think about the situation.
    What I don't get here is how this (ことになる) even involves an 相手... Or it means "ni naru is an expression, based upon one's point of view of how another person thinks about the situation", but I also don't see how this involves two persons.

    The only things I can think of that makes sense here would be: "The meaning of 'koto ni naru' derives from the idea of looking upon your situation objectively, ie not from your point of view.".

    The rest of the sentence is straight-forward:

    The main idea:

    And for example:"この度、結婚することになりました", "引っ越すことになりました" のように、『(ことに)する』と言わずに『なる』を用いる。
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  5. utsubo

    utsubo Junior Member

    mmm ok, it makes sense! especially that

    Thanks a lot!
    although.. when I think I get it, there it comes the end of the sentence, where it says いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったのような表現です.
    Why is it there that か?? Shouldn't it be written without it? Like 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は, 自分で決めたことなのに, いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったのような表現です. ?
    I mean, the whole point it's to state that this kind of sentence leaves a trace of "naturally happened" kind of attitude on the sentence, right? So, what is it with that "ka"? doesn't it sound like it's doubting about what it has just stated or what is trying to state?
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  6. utsubo

    utsubo Junior Member

    ok, now i get it

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