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닥치다 & 닫히다

Discussion in '한국어 (Korean)' started by vientito, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. vientito Senior Member

    cantonese
    which one is correct? Do they sound very close?

    입 닥쳐 or 입 닫혀 ?
     
  2. terredepomme Senior Member

    Human Language
    /닥치다/ and /다치다/. '입 닥쳐' is correct. '닥치다' is only used to mean "to shut up."
     
  3. ClaudioSHIN Junior Member

    입 닥쳐 - Shut up!
    but 입 닫혀 is an uncertain phrase.

    입을 닫다 - to close a mouth.
    Situationally, It used to mean "to do not tell about something to happen or to know"

    입을 닥치다 - to shut a mouth. (and more violent and rough expression than 입을 닫다)
     
  4. stevesjlee Junior Member

    Korean
    not really.. '닥치다' has also meaning of "approach" or "contront"
     
  5. MojoBunny New Member

    Teenage level Korean + American English
    I agree with stevesjlee. For example, 시험 날짜가 내일로 닥쳐왔다. Am I right?

    Actually I have a funny story.. My mom asked me "시험이 내일로 닥쳐왔으니 공부 열심히 해라." I was like "wha?" because I've known "닥쳐" as "shut up."

    As far as I remember, I think you can use 닫히다 on animals (non-human) or involuntary / dead things (입 닫혀 sounds definitely awkward though.. lol) Please comment if I am wrong. :3
     
  6. Rance Senior Member

    Korean
    Sorry for reviving old thread, but to add little extra information to Claudio's explanation:

    입을 다물다 - to close a mouth (physical action).
    예) 입에 먼지가 들어가니 다물고 있어.
    입을 닫다 -keep mum (metaphorical expression)
    예) 그는 그 사건에 대해서 입을 닫고(굳게 다물고) 한마디도 하지 않았다.
     
  7. youngbuts Senior Member

    korean
    닫다(=close something) / 닫히다(to be colsed)

    I think 닫히다 is one of passive forms in Korean, so it gives me some nuance related to involuntary. But I could not say it is used only on non-human. However, to me lexically '닫히다' does not get along with animate ones. For example
    개가 닫히다. (The dog is closed.)
    그가 닫히다. (He is closed.)
    Mojjobunny, is it possible in English "He is closed."? If so, what does it mean?
    Anyway, I can say like the follwoing
    그녀의 마음이 닫혔다. (Her mind has been closed.=She don't want to accept something or anyone any more, and she want to be alone far from others.)


    입 닫아!=입 닥쳐!
    The both sentences give me the same information, Shut the mouth. But though it actually depends on the intonation, the sencond one is a lot more strong to me. That's because '치 or -처 or -쳐' sounds very strong to me, especially gives me a bad or negative feeling. For example
    치다(a verb)= hit someone
    머리 처박아=I don't know how I can translate it into English. Anyway, that kind of torture used to happen in Korean army.
    떡을 치다.=It is a slang that means have a sex. It is a very rude expression.
    땡땡이를 치다.= It is also a slang that means skips classes intentionally.

    Actually there are more words that contain '치 or 처 or 쳐' and make negative feelings. 입 닥쳐 also seems one of them. Thres is another cases using -치- as giving a negative feeling. For example,
    때려치워(때려+어치우+어), 집어치워(집+어치우+어), (그 얘가 혼자) 빵을 다 먹어치웠어(먹+어치우+었어). 해치우다(해+어치우+다)

    As you see, when '치' inserts into the middle of verbs, it appears as '-(어)치우' not '-치'. So, the case of 입 닥쳐 seems rare. Probably the emotion of using '입 닥쳐' does not allow the long form '-어치우-'. So Koreans don't say 입 닫아치워. We say '입 닥쳐', where 'ㄱ' below '다' probably is deriven for 'ㄷ' in '닫다' and someday started being written as being sounded. So, 닥쳐 is actually 닫(the root of 닫다)+치(a giving- negative feeling word)+어(a commading ending word)=닥쳐!

    However, though 닥치다 in 일이 닥치다 has the same written form as '닥쳐' in 입 닥쳐, I don't think they are the same word. There are other relative words of (일이) 닥치다 such as 부닥치다, 부딪치다, 맞닥치다 in addition to 닥치다 in 일이 닥치다. They are all probablly from 닿다(reach, touch, approach, to be close to something).
    I think the deviration is the following: 닿+어치우+다=닥치다 where 'ㅎ' change into 'ㄱ'.

    I hope you notice this pattern is not a regular pattern. Actually I'm also confuse why I use -어치우- at certain verbs and why I use just -치- at other verbs. I say 망치다(=to mess something up). but I don't say 망치우다. And I say 놓치다(probablly from 놓다 as putting something somewhere), but I don't say 녹치다 though I say 닥치다 from 닿다.

    Anyway I hope my thread could make any little help for you to understand Korean better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  8. vientito Senior Member

    cantonese
    thanks youngbuts your explanation is very clear and also makes a lot of sense

    as for 머리 처박아, I think the english word you are looking for is "ram" as in he rams his opponent's head into water. yes I agree 치다 seems to pair with so many words in korean. it's probably one of the most versatile word and has a lot of idiomatic usage to it.

    also, thanks everyone for their contributions
     
  9. Rance Senior Member

    Korean
    I disagree with youngbuts in some of his comments.

    접두사 처- means 함부로, 마구, 심히 which indeed provides strong negative meaning to the word.
    ex) 처먹다. 처박다. 처매다. 처넣다, 처바르다.

    However in the examples given:
    떡을 치다 = pound rice case (the ORIGINAL meaning). It doesn't have negative meaning at all.
    땡땡이를 치다 = skipping class
    Although I agree that action of skipping class is bad, the phrase itself doesn't sound in any negative way.
    치다 here simply means ringing the school bell as if classes have ended.
    It's more of jolly expression than negative one, at least for me.

    Also -어치우- is probably -치우다.
    때려치우다 = 때려서(beat) + 치우다 (clean up)
    일을 때려치우다. It means you are so frustrated with work that you'd want to beat it up and forget about it(or clean up the thoughts about work).
    집어치우다 = 집어서(pick) + 치우다(clean up)
    It can mean same as above as in you pick up something and violently throw out of your mind.
    먹어치우다 = 먹어서(eat) + 치우다(clean up)
    You eat all and clean up.
    해치우다 = 해서(do) + 치우다(clean up)
    You do something and clean up. In other words you finish up.
    Basically 치우다 means getting things out of thoughts or view at one's will.
    First two words convey negative meaning, but last two I don't quite agree being negative.
    Actually 숙제를 해치우거나 맛있는 과자를 혼자서 다 먹어치웠다면 I'd be happy. =)

    Likewise 망치우다 doesn't sound correct because 망치다 doesn't mean cleaning up the mess but leaving a mess.
    Also 놓치다(miss) isn't about getting something out of thoughts or view at one's will but rather against it.

    For 머리 처박아(aka 원산폭격) you don't really ram your head against the floor (although you may be required to do it fast which may sometimes result in ramming...)
    Here's the link for the posture.
    http://mlbpark.donga.com/data/fileUpload/201106/1308371985.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  10. youngbuts Senior Member

    korean
    pattern1
    때려치우다=때려치다
    집어치우다=집어치다
    (소똥을) 치우다=(소똥을) 치다
    해치우다=?해치다

    but
    Pattern2
    먹어치우다=X 먹어치다
    갈아치우다=X갈아치다
    놓치다=X놓치우다
    팔아치우다=X팔아치다


    pattern3
    닥치다=X닥치우다
    설치다=X 설치우다
    망치다=X 망치우다
    깝치다, 사기치다, 고스톱 치다, 파도치다, 물결치다, 뻥치다, 소스라치다, 파헤치다, 깨우치다.....


    Rance, what you said makes senses. But I still don't konw why sometimes '치우' and '치' can be interchageable as in pattern (1) and other times impossible.
    More complicatedly, Sometimes '치' give the subject a nuance of the strong action and the voluntary as in 개가 마당을 설치고 다녔다, but sometimes it give the subject a nuance of the passive or the patient as in 나는 어젯밤에 잠을 설쳤다 or 사랑을 놓쳤다. It seems to me so confusing a word that I can not define though I use it always.

    However, considering what Rance said, we can make a supposed conclusion that '치' and '치우' both have 'cleaning up' or, more exactly to me, 'putting something away' as in pattern (1), but other times it is not allowed as in pattern (2), even though their lexical meaing has the meaning of 'cleaning up' or 'putting something away' like pattern (1) ; this part is not understood by me. (There could be some reasons, I'm pretty sure.) Anyway, as in pattern (3) when we don't put a nuance of moving something away in a word, we seems to use only '-치', not '-치우' .

    P.S. 해치우다 is porbably 害치우다 from 害치다.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  11. Rance Senior Member

    Korean
    [FONT=네이버사전]From Naver dictionary:
    해치다 (害--)[FONT=돋움][해ː치다][/FONT] [/FONT]

    [FONT=네이버사전][동사][/FONT]

    • 1.어떤 상태에 손상을 입혀 망가지게 하다.
    • 2.사람의 마음이나 몸에 해를 입히다.
    • 3.다치게 하거나 죽이다.
    해치우다[FONT=돋움][해ː치우다][/FONT][FONT=네이버사전] [/FONT][FONT=네이버사전][/FONT][FONT=네이버사전][/FONT][FONT=네이버사전][/FONT]
    [FONT=네이버사전][동사][/FONT]

    • 1.어떤 일을 빠르고 시원스럽게 끝내다.
    • 2.일의 방해가 되는 대상을 없애 버리다.

    Although second definition of 해치우다 does have negative meaning, they still mean different things.

    Also if i re categorize into two patterns as in:

    Pattern I (동사+치우다) please check link
    때려치우다 (o) 때려치다 (x)
    집어치우다 (o) 집어치다 (x)
    해치우다 (o) 해치다 (x)
    먹어치우다 (o) 먹어치다(x)
    갈아치우다 (o) 갈아치다 (x)
    팔아치우다 (o) 팔아치다(x)

    치다 is often used as abbreviated form of 치우다, but it's incorrect usage.
    So I believe some illegally abbreviated words must be more widespread than others.
    때려치다 is quite common expression, but it's illegal form.

    Pattern II (-치다)

    I'm not so sure for all examples, but for some of words in your list
    It can describe action of something moving vigorously
    파도치다, 고스톱치다, 물결치다.
    소스라치다 = 솟다 +치다 = 놀라서 몸이 위 아래로 들썩이는 걸 표현
    Or 치다 can mean considering something as true.
    ex) 그 프랑스 남자는 술 중에 포도주를 최고로 쳤다.
    Likewise 뻥을 치다 = 뻥치다.

    파헤치다 = 파다 + 헤치다 = 파다(dig) + 헤다*(rinse) +치다(acting vigorously) Means digging up or exposing.

    Also 망 in 망치다 is not 亡(망할 망), so I'm not sure 망치다 is a compound word or just a single word.
    Would appreciate if someone can clarify.

    깨우치다 => 깨치다(타동사)
    깨다 + 치다
    I believe 깨다 here probably means "wake up" instead of "break".
    You wake up and vigorously/suddenly comes into senses. Hence meaning "realize","perceive".

    And I believe 깝죽거리다(o) 깝치다 (x)
     
  12. youngbuts Senior Member

    korean
    As your link said and I already said in #7, Korean grammarians decided -치우- is the only basic form, not -치. That's because Korean grammarians can not explain the differece the pattern (1) and pattern (2) even though 때려쳐! and 집어쳐! 그가 날 해치려고 해요 commonly are used by Koreans. But As I said already in #10, I wish we could find out the reason, so we can include all words used by Koreans into legal rules. I'm pretty sure there should be reasons.
    Frankly I have thought that 한국어 맞춤법 규정 invented in 1988 under 전두환 government did not fully consider Korean language phenomenon. Like other things in that times, it was likely to try to make one unified rule over the people. To me sometimes it seems to my mother language, therefore your mother language, to be a violence which makes many Korean words in Korean literature illegal. Anyway we should memorize them for official tests or the university entrance test, even though we do not know why one of our cultures and words should be abandoned as illegal. I hope we stop choosing our standard language as monocentric. I wish we will choose it as polycentric as in USA, France, German.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  13. Rance Senior Member

    Korean
    Ah I see your point now.
    The reason why they ruled out illegal in Korean grammar......I don't think I have the answer.
    Definitely 때려쳐라! 집어쳐라! are commonly used forms(or at least to my ears doesn't sound too weird).
    But i'm pretty sure 해치우다 isn't same as 해치다.

    Anyhow I don't know about German, but I believe France is worse than Korean.
    They have had an organization, l'Academie francaise, since 17th century which dictates the development of French language.
    But then again I may be wrong as I only know about case with word hamburger which is not allowed to be used in French.
     

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