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Aşkın özü sözü bir olmaz mı?

Discussion in 'Türkçe (Turkish)' started by Chalk Pot, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. Chalk Pot

    Chalk Pot Banned

    итальянский язык
    Would you please offer a word-to-word analytical translation of the following song verse:

    - Aşkın özü sözü bir olmaz mı?

    (quote from song Aşkkolik by Hadise)

    In particular:

    - özü sözü bir = "straight as a die", "sincere, honest": OK

    But, what is the Grammar?

    Why the two words özü and sözü are not in Nominative?
     
  2. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Ankara
    Turkish
    Aşkın özü is a noun complement: the essence of love

    Özü has received a possessive suffix, but otherwise the entire thing is in nominative. Compare:
    Aşkın özü -nom.
    Aşkın özünü -acc.
    Aşkın özüne -dat
    Aşkın özünde -loc
    etc.
     
  3. Gemmenita

    Gemmenita Senior Member

    Azari
    "öz" means "kendi" which is used in azeri Turkish but instead in Istanbul turkish it's said "kendi". However "öz" is sometimes seen in Turkish : Öz anne (not üvey, one's kendi mother, real mother, own mother)
    So "özü sözü bir" means the one whose sayings are the same as his personnality = sözü ve kendisi bir = honnest

    Aşkın özü sözü bir olmaz mı? = Shouldn't we be honnest in love? (Love isn't an honnest act?)


     
  4. Chalk Pot

    Chalk Pot Banned

    итальянский язык
    Isn't love the one and the same in words and acts?

    That's in facts how this lyrics is translated, if you search for. So Chaton.marchande, you do not agree with Rallino?

    That is: isn't özü the same word (inflected, of course) as öz ? (olmaz mı?)

    So what would be like your grammatical analysis - word by word, case by case - by your point of view - if you don't mind?

    I still cannot understand it, Rallino put the matter as if there could be a "Declension of the Inflected word" ... say it honestly, I'll give up with studying Turkish!
     
  5. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Ankara
    Turkish
    Öz normally mens essence, original. However, özü sözü bir is an expression that Chaton.marchande translated correctly. So, as far as the meaning is concerned, she is right.
    I rather focused on the grammatical construction, since that was your question.

    Yes, you can decline an already inflected word. Actually, there is no limit as to how much you can inflect a word.
    Here are some examples:

    Ev (house) - Çatı (roof)

    Evin [GENITIVE] çatısı [POSSESSED] → The roof of the house.
    Evin [GENITIVE] çatısında [POSSESSED + LOCATIVE] → On the roof of the house.
    Evin [GENITIVE] çatısındaki [POSSESSED + LOCATIVE + RELATIVE] → Which is on the roof of the house.
    Evin [GENITIVE] çatısındakiler [POSSESSED + LOCATIVE + RELATIVE + PLURAL] → Those that are on the roof of the house.
    Evin [GENITIVE] çatısındakilerden [POSSESSED + LOCATIVE + RELATIVE + PLURAL + ABLATIVE] → From those that are on the roof of the house.

    and so on.
     
  6. Chalk Pot

    Chalk Pot Banned

    итальянский язык
    özü sözü bir is an expression

    Thank you Rallino , the point is right this one: it is 'an expression': it looks - that's my problem - as if there existed not a possible LITERAL translation, something 'customary' to be taken "as it is", without a comparison: it is very difficoult for me to be got;

    - Aşkın özü sözü bir olmaz mı?

    Aşkın = [GENITIVE] -- of love
    özü = [POSSESSIVE of öz] -- its essence (???)
    sözü = [POSSESSIVE of söz] -- its meaning (???)
    bir = one
    olmaz mı? = is not?

    - Aşkın özü sözü bir olmaz mı? = Of love, its essential meaning is not? ???

    I knew in Turkish, adjectives do not inflect with the related name, so when I see something like özü sözü I get confused
     
  7. spiraxo

    spiraxo Senior Member

    istanbul
    turkey, turkish
    Since you translated özü sözü part as its essential meaning, I am under the impression that additional explanation is needed. In this idiom, there are two different things: the self of a person and the word (or promise) of a person. Think that there is a comma (or ve, as chaton.marchande stated) between these words.

    aşkın = of love
    özü (kendisi) = its own self
    sözü = its word, its saying
    bir*= same, similar
    olmaz mı? = is/are not?
    Literal Translation → Of love, its own self and its word are not the same?
    There are other possibilities, but we are not discussing over the best translation.

    The exact translation of özü sözü bir is the 1st meaning of coerente in WR Monolingual Italian Dictionary.

    * Bir has many meanings.
    bir a. 1. Sayıların ilki. 2. Bu sayıyı gösteren 1 ve I rakamlarının adı. 3. sf. Aynı, benzer: Beni daim şen gören safdiller öyle sansın / Ne bilsinler ki onlar bence birdir elem, haz 4. sf. Beraber: Hep biriz, ayrılmayız.

    By chance, there is a similar example in the dictionary: "... bence birdir elem, haz." As you see, this time there is a comma between elem and haz.

    :)
     
  8. Gemmenita

    Gemmenita Senior Member

    Azari
    Hello everybody and özellikle Chalk Pot,

    I am joining you right now:

    First your translation is perfect!

    Now analysis of "özü sözü bir":

    "ü" in "özü" as well as in "sözü" is "iyelik eki" ( possessif suffixes) as we say evi , arabası,...
    Therefore, for the same reason that we say arabası = his car, we say "sözü" = his saying, "özü"= his being, himself ( öz =kendi)

    these three words together which are considered as a unique adjectif, are used in the way that I let you know with some examples:

    (Benim) evleneceğim kişinin özü sözü bir olmalı.

    O çok iyi bir adam, her zaman özü sözü bir .

    Murat'a güvenebilirsin, özü sözü bir.

    Neden sadece onunla arkadaşsin? Çünkü (onun) özü sözü bir.

    Cennet'in özü sözü bir.

    ve sonunda: Aşkin özü sözü bir olmalı.

    And there is a famous azeri song where she (the singer) says:

    Ben giderim o oğlana , onun pulu* çok olsun.
    So we can change it and say:
    Ben giderim o oğlana, özü sözü bir olsun! :)


    * pul = para
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
  9. Chalk Pot

    Chalk Pot Banned

    итальянский язык
    OK, thank you all - now it looks more clear. But I have to admit that the problem with this expression is just its lacks the conjunction 've' :

    - if it were - özü ve sözü bir (olmak) - it surely would have been easier to detect ...

    Now, besides the meaning is enough clear, there could be another matter (if you like to dicuss about):

    - when I say 'sözü', am I saying "its (/her/his) word" or also "its saying" (= the act of saying that word) ?

    Because, it is different: does 'Aşkın özü sözü bir' refers to

    - 1) 'the word-love, to mean the act of loving'
    - or instead 2) 'the act of saying 'love', to mean the person who says it' ??

    In more a general speech, does özü sözü bir refers to THE THING it is said (söz = "the word") or to THE ONE WHO SPEAKS (söz = "the saying, the speaking") ?

    So, what is honnest, coherent (by the grammatical point of view):

    - 'love' (is coherent with its own word)
    - or 'the boyfriend' (is coherent with what he speaks about) ?
     
  10. Gemmenita

    Gemmenita Senior Member

    Azari
    1.First of all, "Aşk" here is not object but the subject of you sentence. Means it is not "saying love" or "act of loving" but it means
    "The söz of Love and the öz of Love are the same."

    I have written "love" with capital "L" to show that it is figurative and as my example above "Cennet'in özü sözü bir" Aşk also can be considered as a living thing.(personification)

    2. "Söz" means "what is said" in azeri and its turkish equivalent is "laf". However it is introduced in Turkish and sometimes used in azeri meaning but mostly used in the meaning of "promise".

    3. By "word" if you mean : a book is a word, a chair is a word, I should say No, it doesn't mean "word", but if you mean "saying" or "what is said", I should say Yes, but in this meaning usually we say "words" (in plural) as your translation in post4. That's why your translation is perfect because it is used in literary form ( by using "words" and not "saying")
     

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