a cualquier título (comprar/vender/etc.) - criminal law

Discussion in 'Legal Terminology' started by Heredianista, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    "El que... compre, venda or traspase droga a cualquier título, será sancionado con 5 a 10 años de prisión."

    My try:

    "Anyone who... buys, sells or distributes drugs for any purpose, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison."

    Or is the following translation better?

    "Anyone who... buys, sells or distributes drugs in any capacity, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison."

    Thank you for your time!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2011
     
    : title
  2. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    From the RAE:
    a título de.
    1. loc. prepos. Con pretexto, motivo o causa de.

    So "for any purpose" seems to be the most accurate.

    Also, technically, wouldn't "traspasar" be "transport" rather than "distribute"? Somebody who is just carrying drugs (like a mule) is not necessarily distributing them.
     
  3. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Thank you, k-in-c! Your reply is a huge help. You have my gratitude.

    The WR definition for "traspasar" does include the following:

    "‹bar/farmacia› (vender) to sell;".

    Since I am already using "sell" in the sentence, I thought "distribute" might work here, but now I am not at all sure. What do you think?

    Thanks again!
     
  4. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    Well, the most common meaning is "move from one place to another" (i.e. transport). I don't know whether here it has the meaning of "purvey," as you say, but it seems unlikely. See what the natives say ...
     
  5. piraña utria

    piraña utria Senior Member

    Cartagena de Indias.
    Spanish - Colombian with Caribbean nuanc
    Hola,

    Otra posibilidad para "a cualquier título" puede tener relación con el verbo "transferir" (y es común también en derecho): "to transfer the ownership of drugs by any contract other than a purchase".

    Seguramente tú sabes una forma más técnica de expresarlo o corregirás mi inglés.

    Saludos cordiales,

    PU
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  6. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Muchas gracias Piraña.

    Ahora me quedo con la duda de cómo traducirlo.

    ¿Cómo le suena lo siguiente?

    "Anyone who... buys, sells or transfers drugs by any means, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison."
     
  7. piraña utria

    piraña utria Senior Member

    Cartagena de Indias.
    Spanish - Colombian with Caribbean nuanc
    Hola, amiga.

    Pienso que leyendo la norma completa (http://www.drleyes.com/page/internacional/documento/7/285/1013/Panama/Codigo-Penal/Delitos-Contra-la-Seguridad-Colectiva/, lo de "cualquier propósito" no tiene sentido, porque estaría ya aclarado al iniciar que se trata de "fines (propósitos") ilícitos", según el mismo artículo.

    No sé si "by any means" exprese la idea original en español de "título", que es más próxima a "acto jurídico".
     
  8. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Muchas gracias otra vez, Piraña; tienes razón.

    He cambiado mi a traducción a:

    "Anyone who, with illicit intentions, buys, sells or transfers the ownership of drugs by any contractual agreement other than a purchase, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison."

     
  9. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    Um, what exactly would that mean ...?
     
  10. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    For example, exchanging drugs for services, rather than for money (which is technically different from selling drugs, but not effectively different as far as this law is concerned).
     
  11. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    That seems like a pretty big assumption to make. Just "transfers" seems a lot safer to me.
     
  12. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Thank you, k-in-sc.

    And thank you both for your time and contributions; I cannot tell you how much I appreciate them.

    You have both convinced me that "traspase" is not "distributes" but rather "transfers" or "transports", and that is a huge help (although I do wish I knew which to use).

    However, I am really struggling with "a cualquier título". Since my translation will be used in a trial, it may well be critical to get the wording exactly right, since the wording may determine whether someone is found guilty or not. I really do not want to get this wrong.

    And the options presented here (and those I have found elsewhere) are so widely divergent. "A cualquier título" seems to be used in so many truly different ways, and I am not even familiar with the expression. The more I look into its meanings, the less certain I am of what meaning it may have here.

    I see now that "for any purpose" probably does not make sense because, exactly as piraña says, the full sentence does in fact begin by clarifying that these actions must occur with "fines ilícitos". I'm sorry I didn't include that. Here is the full sentence:

    "El que con fines ilícitos compre, venda or traspase droga a cualquier título, será sancionado con 5 a 10 años de prisión."

    I'm looking at it in a new way, now. It seems to me that "a cualquier título" refers not only to "traspase" but also to "compre" and to "venda".

    In other words, the translation has to work for all of the below:

    "El que con fines ilícitos compre... droga a cualquier título, será sancionado con 5 a 10 años de prisión."

    "El que con fines ilícitos venda... droga a cualquier título, será sancionado con 5 a 10 años de prisión."

    "El que con fines ilícitos... traspase droga a cualquier título, será sancionado con 5 a 10 años de prisión."

    Does that help in determining how to translate "
    a cualquier título" here?

    Piraña, you say,
    Would you be willing to explain what you mean by this, exactly? Do you mean that the translation should narrowly define a specific action, as opposed to a manner of acting, as in "by any means"?

    In another thread, someone posts:

    "transacciones a cualquier título porque la droga estaba dirigida a ser comercializada", es decir, que de cualquier manera se obtenga dinero o un lucro de esas transacciones u operaciones.

    That seem to me to support a translation of "by any means". Does anyone agree?

    Other translations suggested in that thread are:

    for whatever purpose
    of whatever type
    of whatever nature
    of whatever description (proposed b you, k-in-sc)

    The two options that seem most probable to me right now are:

    "Anyone who... buys, sells or distributes drugs by any means, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison." (although I'm not sure that this means anything, really.)

    "Anyone who... buys, sells or distributes drugs of any type, shall be sentenced to 5 to 10 years in prison." (And I'm definitely not sure that this is what the source text means to say.)

    Help?

    Thank you!!!





     
  13. piraña utria

    piraña utria Senior Member

    Cartagena de Indias.
    Spanish - Colombian with Caribbean nuanc
    Hola,

    Entiendo lo delicado del asunto y no escribo en mi pobre inglés, para no liarte más ni equivocarme.

    "Título" es un concepto de derecho civil que, en general, se refiere a cualquier hecho (humano o no humano) o actos jurídicos (contratos, etc) que pueden producir, extinguir o crear obligaciones.

    No sé si así se use en inglés, pero por acá aparece con ese uso en esta y muchas otras disposicions del Código Civil de Louisina, que ya sabes que es igual a muchos latinoamericanos: http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=110937

    Sí "by any means" cubre sin problemas ese concepto ("hechos" y "actos jurídicos"), me parece que esa es la opción válida.
     
  14. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Magnífico. !Miles gracias, Piraña!

    (Aunque quisiera notar que el párafo a que te refieres parece tratar de un título de posesión de propiedad, lo cual es otra forma de entender el significado de "título".)
     
  15. miss k Junior Member

    madrid
    English
    Hola foreros:

    This is one of these tricky phrases of legalese that always bog me down.

    I think that what the drafter is referring to is the action through which the criminal conduct is committed (the buying, selling, distributing) - so whatever form that action takes, howsoever that action is carried out (whether on a street corner, by way of a formal contract, over the internet etc.) is prohibited. In essence, the buying, selling and distributing cannot be dressed up as anything else in order to evade the law. I think this is in line with what Pirñana says (cualquier acto o hecho...).

    I think that the correct translation would therefore be "by any means".

    I've seen this construction in legislation before - see for instance, a provision of the Criminal Code from El Salvador dealing with forfeiture:

    "Esta pérdida comprenderá los valores, derechos y cosas obtenidos por cualquier título, con motivo o como resultado del hecho, por el condenado o por otra persona" was translated by UN translators as "Forfeiture shall cover assets, fees and goods howsoever obtained in connection with or as a result of the act by the offender or by any other person"
     
  16. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Miss K, you are a wonder! Bless your heart ~ Thank you!
     
  17. javierserrano

    javierserrano Senior Member

    Bogotá D.C.
    Spanish-Colombia
    Interesante hilo.

    Estoy en la misma encrucijada. No obstante, después de leer todas sus valiosas apreciaciones, y viendo la respuesta final de Miss K pienso que una cosa es

    Por cualquier título = by any means (indica el origen)

    y otra es (concuerdo con la opinión de piraña, k-in-sc y heredianista)

    A cualquier título = for any purpose; whatever purpose/type/nature (indica el propósito)

    Saludos
     
  18. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    That's an important distinction. Thanks for pointing it out.
     
  19. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    ¡Muy bien ~ Gracias! Se me hace que tiene sentido.

    Pero difiere de lo que opinaron miss k y piraña utria. ¡Ahora yo no sabría cómo traducirlo! Por fortuna, ya entregué la traducción, así que ya no es problema mío. ;p

    Por lo menos, hasta que yo lo vuelva a encontrar... =O{
     
  20. Filimer Senior Member

    Chile
    Español
    Ejemplos de "a cualquier título":

    A título oneroso = 1. m. Der. El que supone recíprocas prestaciones entre los que adquieren y transmiten.

    A título lucrativo = 1. m. Der. El que proviene de un acto de liberalidad, como la donación o el legado, sin conmutación recíproca.

    A título gratuito = A título lucrativo (curioso, porque gratuito y lucrativo son antónimos).
     
  21. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Fascinating, Filimer. Thank you! I am learning so much from you.
     
  22. Juliatula New Member

    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Spanish - Argentina
    Como dice Heredianista, en Argentina por lo menos se usa "a cualquier título" refiriéndose a si se recibe algo a cambio o no en una transacción. Como no encontré acá la respuesta que yo buscaba para traducir esta exresión al inglés, dejo mi sugerencia "either for consideration or not", o "whether for consideration or for no consdieration". "For consideration" es una buena traducción para "a título oneroso".
    Saludos
     
  23. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    In that case the most natural way to say it would be by combining your two suggestions: "whether for consideration or not."
     
  24. Juliatula New Member

    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Spanish - Argentina
    Thank you!!
     
  25. Heredianista

    Heredianista Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - USA
    Thank you all so much for your contributions.
     
  26. JenCor Junior Member

    Spanish
    The word "transport" has a different meaning in legalese. Also someone carrying drugs (like a mule) could be charged with possession with intent to deliver. Not delivery or distribution.
     
  27. evitap Senior Member

    Spanish-Colombia
    Como lo indica Filimer, 'a título…' significa la modalidad bajo la cual se realiza un acto (por ej., a título oneroso significa bajo una modalidad de recíprocas prestaciones entre…; a título de donación significa que su naturaleza es una donación). 'A cualquier título' significaría entonces, bajo cualquier modalidad (como un hecho o acto jurídico según anota Piraña Utria en el post No. 13), mas no 'for any purpose; whatever purpose', según Javier Serrano - post No. 17). No tiene nada que ver con el propósito.
     

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