Accusative with a plural object

Discussion in 'Türkçe (Turkish)' started by FlyingBird, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. FlyingBird Senior Member

    Makedonca
    türkçeyi biliyorum / türkçe biliyorum
    türkçeyi seviyorum / türkçe seviyorum


    now i'm asking myself if we should put suffix 'yi' in those 2 sentences or without it.


    i know sentences below are correct but not sure if it is the same when we talking about language.
    seni biliyorum
    arabaları seviyorum
    türk dilini seviyorum
    türkiye'yi seviyorum
    bu dili öğreniyorum


    please answer me and correct me if any of sentences are incorrected :)


    thank you in advance :)
     
  2. Esoppe Junior Member

    Turkish
    türkçeyi biliyorum / türkçe biliyorum
    Both are correct, but the 2nd one is more widely used. Türkçe biliyorum translates to "I know Turkish", while in "Türkçeyi biliyorum", the noun Türkçe is more definite; it's like "I know the (language) Turkish". Putting the suffix -(y)i to an object with verbs that can take that suffix is similar to adding a definite article to the object.

    türkçeyi seviyorum / türkçe seviyorum
    Again, Türkçeyi seviyorum translates to "I like the (language) Turkish", while Türkçe seviyorum translates to "I like Turkish"; however,
    in this case, "Türkçe seviyorum" is almost never used. Because Türkçe can be used as a noun, adjective and an adverb. In this sentence, Türkçe seviyorum sounds like "I love in Turkish / I love Turkishly", so it would not be used.

    You could question why Türkçe biliyorum is okay, because it's pretty much formed the same way (Turkish can still act like an adverb there).
    It depends on how widely one of the two forms (-yi sevmek vs. sevmek) has been used over the decades. If everybody uses the 'no suffix' form, no one would think "<noun which can also be used as an adverb> <verb>" sounds odd. But if almost nobody uses the no suffix form, then it looks strange. I guess you could always use the -(y)i suffix in cases where the noun is a word that also has an adverb meaning, to avoid creating confusion (because adverbs don't take those condition suffixes).

    ---

    As a final word: if you know the noun is simply a noun, and cannot be used as an adverb (and I think, apart from languages, there are few nouns that can be used as adverbs), then:
    * use the -(y)i suffix if you want the object to be definite (or if it must be definite, like in the case of "bu dil" or "sen")
    * use no suffix if the object is not definite

    Although, I guess there are still some exceptions, "arabaları seviyorum / I like cars" is a general remark, the cars are not definite. But the standard form of the noun in that case is the -(y)i form again (arabalar seviyorum is almost never used). If I'm not mistaken, this is because it is in plural. Some plural nouns, even if they are indefinite, take the -(y)i suffix. Which plural nouns? I really am not sure if there is a rule to that.
     
  3. Ric84 New Member

    Italiano
    Hello to everybody!

    I got a similar problem, but I don't know if I got the point...could you help me?

    A) Futbolcu spor yapyıor = The football player practices sport
    b) Kitapçı kitapları satıyor = The book-seller sells books

    From "Teach Yourself Turkish - Unit 4 - Ex. 3"

    Question: why there is the i-type suffix on kitapları but not in spor?

    Possible answer: maybe because "sport" is not definite? I mean, the book-seller sells "his" books, instead the football player just practices...sport!

    Am I right?
     
  4. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Ankara
    Turkish
    I would say that the English translation should better read: the book-seller sells the books.
    Because if it were indefinite, we'd simply go with singular: Kitapçı kitap satıyor.

    If the noun is plural, we usually prefer to use the accusative case.
     
  5. Esoppe Junior Member

    Turkish
    Yes. Although as said above, "kitapçı kitapları satıyor" is a sentence that implies the book seller is selling several defined (previously mentioned in context) books.

    In cases where the sentence involves a professional or a repetitive action (like selling books, producing shoes, buying apples, chopping logs), the object is usually used in the singular (and without any suffixes) even if there are multiple of those objects being sold/produced/bought/chopped.

    So for example if you want to say:

    "the bookseller is selling books" (where books are undefined), you say "kitapçı kitap satıyor" (instead of "kitaplar satıyor" or "kitapları satıyor")
    "The lumberjack is chopping logs" becomes "Oduncu odun kırıyor"
    "The woman is buying apples" becomes "Kadın elma alıyor"
     
  6. Ric84 New Member

    Italiano
    Great, I think I understood! Thank you both.

    And by the way, "The lumberjack is chopping logs" is my favourite example ever. :D
     

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