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All Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by venenum, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. venenum

    venenum Senior Member

    Middle of Nowhere
    Croatian/Croatia
    Hi there!

    Jana's answer to a question concerning a Chech surname made me wonder:

    In Croatian, we don't distinguish between male and female surnames, meaning that a brother and a sister have exactly the same surname - concerning form and pronunciation.
    Jana's explanation triggered a question: How does this really function? Do other Slavic languages distinguish between male and female forms of surnames - meaning that brother and sister would have different forms of the same surname?

    Thanks in advance!

    Poison
     
  2. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Hello,

    In Polish it depends on a surname since some change their desinences according to the gender and some don't change at all (if we are talking about the Nominative case of course).


    I know that in Russian surnames decline according to gender, though I don't know if this is the case with all of them.

    Tom
     
  3. papillon Senior Member

    Barcelona, Spain
    Russian (Ukraine)
    Yes, many Russian surnames take different endings depending on the gender. For a full explanation take a look at this recent thread, particularly post #2 by Anatoli.
     
  4. LuvDancin

    LuvDancin New Member

    Ljubljana
    Slovene/ Slovenia
    Same goes for Slovenian. No difference.
     
  5. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    Patterns:

    The male surname looks like a noun (in the grammar sense of the word) - add "-ová" and sometimes omit a vowel at the end. A vast majority of names.
    Novák - Nováková
    Nováček - Nováčková
    Procházka (= walk) - Procházková
    Svoboda (=liberty) - Svobodová
    Dvořák - Dvořáková
    Němec (=German) - Němcová
    Soukup - Soukupová
    Navrátil - Navrátilová
    The male surname looks like an adjective (xxxý) - change it to a female adjective.
    Nový (=new) - Nová
    Novotný - Novotná
    Černý (=black) - Černá
    Veselý (cheerful) - Veselá
    Exceptions and foreign names (burrocratic and difficult...) - immutable
    Janků - Janků
    Jírů - Jírů
    Hope this helps. :)

    Jana
     
  6. se16teddy

    se16teddy Senior Member

    London
    English - England
    The same applies to Russian patronymics: Ivan Petrovich Kuznetsov might have a son Sergey Ivanovich Kuznetsov and a daughter Anna Ivanovna Kuznetsova.
     
  7. Insider Senior Member

    Lviv
    Ukraine (Ukrainian)
    Hello,

    Yes, it's a true fact. The division of surnames for females and for males really exists in Ukrainian. Of course, first of all, it depends on the surname.

    Insider
     
  8. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    Same in Serbian, obviously :D

    Although, -ka or -eva can be added to a surname (when female, even the foreign one), but in a certain context and not as an official form of a last name.
    For instance:
    Jovanovićeva je rekla... (Ms Jovanović said...)
    but also
    Del Ponteova je rekla... (Ms Del Ponte said...)
     
  9. Etcetera

    Etcetera Senior Member

    St Petersburg, Russia
    Russian, Russia (St Petersburg)
    Russian surnames usually take different endings. There are some exceprions, mailnly surnames of Ukrainian origin which end in -ko.
     
  10. cyanista

    cyanista законодательница мод

    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    To be more precise, there are several typical endings in Russian which change depending on gender: -ов (ова), -ев (ева), -ин(-ина), -ский(-ская), -ый/-ой(-ая). The first three endings are by far the most common. All the other endings remain the same in either gender: -ец, -ич, -их, -ых, -ер and many more.
     
  11. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    I just read in Blic the following:

    Mandićeva osigurala novo odličje za Srbiju!
    Mandićeva osigurala srebro
    ...
    Ova 20-godišnja Beograđanka dva puta je vodila, ali je iskusna Meksikanka pretekla i povela sa 4:3, kada je Mandićeva zabeležila udarac u glavu i preokrenula na 6:4.

    If I am not mistaken, and considering that the verbs osigurati and zabeležiti are both transitive, in all the three sentences the female athlete Milica Mandić is the subject of the sentence. So why are they using the possessive adjective? Would it be wrong to say

    Mandić
    osigurala novo odličje za Srbiju!
    Ova 20-godišnja Beograđanka dva puta je vodila, ali je iskusna Meksikanka pretekla i povela sa 4:3, kada je Mandić zabeležila udarac u glavu i preokrenula na 6:4.

    Does this have something to do with the fact that it is a female surname and thus undeclinable?
     
  12. Anicetus Senior Member

    Croatian
    Yes, you got it right. Female surnames are indeclinable unless they end in -a (or more rarely -e). This can lead to some rather awkward-sounding sentences when women are referred to only by their surname (especially when expressing dative), which is why these surnames are often adapted to feminine adjectives or nouns (such as Mandićka) in the colloquial language. However, this practice is considered quite informal, maybe even impolite by some people. So, to answer your question, saying "Mandić osigurala novo odličje za Srbiju!" wouldn't be wrong at all, it would actually be more formal than using Mandićeva.

    Note that Mandićevi can also mean "the Mandićs" ("the Mandić family"), although just Mandići is probably more common in this meaning.

    On a side note, in many Slavic countries women do have surnames that are grammatically feminine in form (such as Mandićeva). Only in BCMS countries and Slovenia (I'm not sure about Macedonia) do men and women have same surnames, which are typically modelled for men.
     
  13. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    On the contrary, "possessivization" of bare female surnames is prescribed (but admittedly, not always followed) in Serbian standard:
    http://www.rastko.rs/filologija/odbor/odluka030.html

    Suffix -ka, however, is considered informal and borderline derrogatory.
     
  14. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    I think you are right, it is followed in general but with exceptions.
    A quick check of various articles in Blic makes me think that in titles like,
    Mandić: Nisam srljala, bila sam taktički spremna za Espinosu
    when the name is not a part of the sentence, it is not followed. Of course here even a beginner in the language can easily deduce that we are talking about a woman...

    Then again there is
    Pretposlednji dan Olimpijskih igara: Novaković vesla za medalju, kreću Mandić i Filipović.
    Here if you don't know the athletes you can't
    guess the gender of Mandić and Filipović.

    Now, I recently read various articles in Vijesti about their female handball team where this rule was used much less frequently, but on the other hand they continuously referred to the athletes using both their names...
     
  15. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    It is slightly different in Russian than in Czech. Only feminine forms of masculine last name forms ending in -ov look like that in Russian, so the feminine form of Ivanov will be Ivanova, but if the masculine form does not end in -ov, it will not be -ova. For example, the wife of Putin will not be Putinova, but Putina.

    In Polish, it depends if the last name is of Polish origin or not. Only etymologically Polish names differentiate between masculine and feminine forms. In the past there was also a form for young girls, which is really a thing of the past that I only heard about. In Polish the form of Nowak will be the same for both, a man and woman, in contrast with the Czech language.

    In fact I think only names ending in -ski, cki, have a feminine from -ska, cka, in Polish.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  16. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    There is a gender distinction in Macedonian:

    –е(в)ски (masc.) corresponds to –е(в)ска (fem.)
    –о(в)ски (masc.) to –о(в)ска (fem.)
    –ев (masc.) to –ева (fem.)
    –ов (masc.) to –ова (fem.)

    –иќ, used by Macedonian Serbs, does not have a feminine form.

    The less common surnames ending in –ин doesn't seem to have a distinct feminine form (as in Russian, for example).

    The even less common surnames—those that aren't formed like adjectives—also have the one form: Ѓузел, Караџа, Терпо, Ристо, Банар, Маленко, Манџук, Плевнеш, Подгорец, Силјан, Точко.

    This gender distinction has can be quite problematic outside of Slavic-speaking countries. A female relative of mine had her birth documents in her feminine form, but in another country she was registered with the masculine form (as per her father's documents). This meant that whenever she presented them to a government department, they considered them to not refer to the same person.
     
  17. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever


    This is one of the rules where the actual practice varies; note that bare surnames are seldom used in the informal register (where one would normally address a woman by her first name). On one hand, leaving the surname in nominative leaves an awkward situation where the reader does not know person's gender, or where the case congruence is badly broken. On the other, possesivization probably leaves a subconscious impression that the surname is mutilated and/or that the speaker is sexist, although the normativists insist that this is not the case:

     
  18. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    OK, clear so far.
    Just two more questions

    1) Is it frequent to call a female by her surname (like you do in the army with males) in more or less informal situations (a boss, a colleague, even a friend being playful or ironic). Something like

    Hej, Spanić, dođi ovamo! (is that grammatically correct, or it must be something like Hej, Spanićeva, dođi ovamo! or even Hej, Spanićevo, dođi ovamo!)

    2) Does someone know why, in a language where literally EVERYTHING is declined, most of female surnames do not?
     
  19. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    I wouldn't say it's common, but it's highly idiolectal. If you were close, you would call her by name: Hej, Ivana, dođi ovamo! If you're more distant (e.g. you're her boss), you would probably still call her by name, but address her with vi: Ivana, molim vas dođite ovamo! If you're formal still more, you would use Gospođo Spanić, molim vas dođite!.

    Your example is neither respectful nor really intimate. It should read Hej, Spanićeva in my book, to be grammatical.

    First, because they do not have a declension to fit in. They ought to have a feminine declension, but they do not have a feminine form (unless they happen to have, like Jelača or Beara) so there's no suitable suffix. Second, they can be regarded as a relatively recent invention: in a traditionalist society, a woman belonged to either the husband or the father, so a possessive from his name or surname was deemed appropriate (and still is, although to a lesser extent). Note that other Slavic languages have still stricter rules about female surnames (although the sense of possession was probably lost).
     
  20. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    When calling (the vocative case) it's Spasićeva, ...
    Spasić
    - In a roll call (not the vocative case), it's just surname or full name and surname. It's used in places such as classrooms (especially if there are a few persons with the same name), courts, military, prisons etc.


    Ah! Well, true, but I would rather treat this like: it's the same surname for all the members of the family, they are one team ;), and they are equal. I don't know if this is a relatively recent invention, grammatically, because the majority of Serbian surnames ends in -, no female (nor male) version, only one version for both sexes. To me, it's not a matter of "possessing" a woman (I think only men can think of this :D), the surname meant what (kind of) family you come from, which usually meant - what your patriline was. But, for instance, Popovići meant a line of descent from a male ancestor, a priest, to a descendant (of either sex). Descendants seemed to be equalized, "children/descendant of their forefather"), and marked by their role in the society.


     
  21. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    As far as I know, in Serbia proper stable surnames were introduced only by a Prince Miloš's decree from 1820s, which required all citizens (well, peasants, actually :rolleyes:) to acquire a surname ending in -ić, and that it's inherited from father to children; the customs were fairly chaotic before that. That is why in Central Serbia we have relatively uniform suffix -ić today. In other areas (Austria-Hungary), surnames were introduced at different times, and by different principles, but I'd guess that, at least among peasantry, it wasn't earlier than the 19th century.
     
  22. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    So what about heros Devet Jugovića from about 1389.? They were not peasants... :D We are not sure if that was their surname, but it might have been...they were called like that :rolleyes:.....(Jugovići - Vojin, Miljko, Marko, Ljubodrag, Radmilo, Boško, Stojan, Veselin and my favorite Damjan)

    (And 200 years is not relatively recently....:rolleyes:. But women's independence is.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  23. Anicetus Senior Member

    Croatian
    Very well, I wasn't aware of that. My impression is that isn't used very often in headlines in Croatia. Indeed, Google search for Pusićeva (Vesna Pusić is a Croatian minister) gives only one result from Croatia on the first three pages -- most are from Serbia or even Slovenia. On a less related note, it's funny how one of these results from Serbia refers to her as "ministar" and how Croatian insists that a female minister be ministrica while not requiring a special form for bare female surnames.


    As Duya and Brainiac told you, it can't be hej, Spanićevo. Remember that adjectives don't have a special vocative form. ;)


    What I find kind of silly is that even when the surname is an adjective (such surnames are actually rather rare, but they do exist), with the suffix -ski or -ov for example, women get the masculine form.


    Of course we don't perceive surnames as indicating possession today, but in the old-fashioned patriarchal society, the father -- the "patriarch"-- pretty much was the master, owner, of his family. You've probably heard the phrase "Čiji/čija si ti?" from old people addressing children or teenagers. :D The way I understand it, -ić is primarily a suffix for deriving masculine diminutive nouns, so Popović originally meant "priest's (little) boy" (even though we obviously don't understand it as such any more). Note that the Russian equivalent of this suffix, -ič, is used for deriving men's patronymics (the names that everybody gets according to their father's given name, as demonstrated earlier in this thread by se16teddy), while the suffix for women is -na.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  24. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Yes, I've heard for "Čiji/Čijia si ti?". (Matija Bećković - Čiji si ti, mali?).
    But, as you said, that's for kids. And when you are a kid, too young, dete, and you "belong" to someone, the sex somehow loses its importance, and a child represents his/her parents (say father).
    - is deminative, he is "little father", little Jug Bogdan :D (example above) (in my region it's used to draw similarities between child and his grandparents), so a child doesn't belong to a parent, I'd say a child (of either sex) is a copy of a parent. (At least to me.)
    Like when you call a kitten mačkić (the sex of a kitten seems unimportant).
    And again in my opinion, I imagine -ić first in plural (Popovići), (like pilići, ptičići... :D), showing a family, a group, then I guess it has gained singular...hm hm....

    (By the way, in so-called patriarchal families, women were "secret bosses" ;))
     
  25. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Etymologically, the female surnames are mostly genitives from the proper ("masculine") surnames, that's why Kuznetsova, i.e. [the wife] of Kuznetsov. In case of Pushkin (as far as I know) the female version in Russian is Pushkina (not *Pushkinova).

    As the ending -ova is relatively frequent, so in Czech and Slovak it's spontaneously interpreted as -ová, i.e. the feminine form of the adjectives in -ový (-ovoj/-ovyj in Russian). The result is that in Czech/Slovak we have Kuzněcovová/Kuznecovová, Puškinová, Newtonová, Shakespearová, Sarkozyová, Andrássyová, and even Suzi Quatroová etc ...

    So the ending -ová has become a "general solution", except of the surnames that are a priori adjectives. Thus e.g. the wife/daughter of Nový is Nová (and not *Novýová :)).

    Of course, this system may also lead to an eventual "deformation" of the proper/original surname. For example, Mrs./Miss Pólová can be the wife/daughter of Mr. Pól, Póla or Pólo ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  26. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    I was going to say that. Most of the time I read Jurarnji List (I think it has something to do with the colors, or the copious amounts of foto-reportages featuring attractive females :D) and I never noticed such a thing. On the occasion of the Olympics, I switched to Blic and then I spotted it and asked you about it...

    Of course I know that, I mean, please...:p.
    It was an indirect way of checking if these forms act like nouns or adjectives when referring to female humans.

    I was always wandering about the á at the end. Does it mean that accent of the word actually shifts to the final syllable or something else? I mean is it Dominika Cibulková as most western sportscasters call her (with the accent on the u) or Dominika Cibulková (with the accent on the a)?
     
  27. kirahvi Senior Member

    Finnish
    In Czech and Slovak the stress is always on the first syllable, and the acute accent on top represents a long vowel. So it should be Cibulková.
     
  28. Miliu Junior Member

    Madeira
    Portuguese
  29. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Go to the previous page and start reading from post #11.
    Although I have to say this is the first time I see the "possessivisation rule" applied to a foreign female surname (even in Blic they don't usually do it).
    Still if the other various grammatical rules (cases etc) that apply to a domestic surname, apply also to a foreign, I can't see the reason why this shouldn't...
     
  30. Miliu Junior Member

    Madeira
    Portuguese
    Tassos, I've read all the posts, thanks. In one of them there was the example of "Del Ponteova": so, it seems that rule applies to all surnames... (Moskourieva je bila pjevaćica, Jolie-eva i Anistonova su glumice, Thatchereva je bila ministerica, Merkeleva nije vrlo popularna u Grčkoj...funny!).
     
  31. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    No, the accent (stress) is alway on the first syllable of the word. The á representns a long vowel. In this case, etymologically it is a continuation of a former Slavic *aja, where this *ja was a (today non existing) pronoun in function of a definite article when added to the end of adjectives.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  32. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    That means that Western sportscasters pronounce all female Czech and Slovak surnames incorrectly...:D
    Btw Francisgranada what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)
     
  33. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Practically yes :). But let's pardon them as it's impossible to know the correct pronounciation of all the languages on earth ...

    By tradition, automatically adding -ová, so Nagyová, Meszárošová (Mészárosová), Pálffyová, Szabóová ...also Bauerová, Papadopoulosová etc. But, after turbulent discussions, a new law was approved in the parliament some years ago that admits the omission of -ová in surnames if officially demanded (I don't know the details). So today we can see, also in TV, names like Andrea Belányi, Anna Nagy ... but also Edit Bauer, Sofia Papadopoulos etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  34. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    Although I've never been demuring to that, I wouldn't be so kind to many of them in this respect, but let's take it rather as a matter of opinion.

    Out of the curiosity - there are certainly more ladies without the female suffix in Slovakia than in Czech Republic. Not only because of the ten percent Hungarian minority, but also because some Slovaks have stronger feeling not to modify foreign sounded or looking names, I think.
     
  35. Anicetus Senior Member

    Croatian
    Why do you think so? Kuznetsov and Pushkin are already possessive adjectives, so why couldn't Kuznetsova and Pushkina simply be their feminine forms? They are declined like they are.

    If you don't mind some small corrections, it's Mouskourijeva and Joliejeva -- j is inserted between a letter representing /i/ and a, e, i or u; hyphens are only used when inflecting acronyms. Furthermore, Thatcherova and Merkelova -- -ev is normally used for palatal-ending stems; r does sometimes behave as if it were a palatal (carev, for example), but not in foreign names or recent borrowing (that all happens because r actually used to be palatal a long time ago). Of course, those names were according to Croatian and Bosnian orthography, Serbian would simply spell them phonetically: Muskurijeva, Džolijeva, Tačerova. And also, it's pjevačica and ministrica.
     
  36. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Because they are, not explicitely feminine but possessive as you have said correctly. The so called feminine form of the surnames in -ová historically derives from the possessive: Kováčova žena (the wife of Smith, Smith's wife) and also žena Puškina or Puškinova žena (Pushkin's wife, wife of Pushkin) etc...

    I wanted to point out that in Czech and Slovak the ending -ová is now simply added to the surname, even if it is etimologically already in genitive case. That's why Kuznecovová and Puškinová in Slovak. In other words, -ová behaves today as an adjective ending, instead of being a feminine possessive -ova.

    P.S. How do you say e.g. Jekaterina Puškinová or Oľga Kuznecovová in Serbian (the wives of some Pushkin and Kuznetsov)?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  37. werrr Senior Member

    Czech ending -ová, albeit of genitival origin like the possessive ending -ova, was never possessive. It's pure adjectival ending alike in kovová (metallic, of metal), ledová (icy, of ice), hladová (hungry)...
    The possessive and adjectival endings have also different declension.

    Czech surnames are of three models:

    1) male: noun × female: adjective formed with -ová (model Novák × Nováková)
    2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
    3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)

    First two models are inflective and the third one is inflexible. Foreign surnames rarely suits the last two patterns. Only some Slavic adjectival surnames suits the second model. On the other hand, practically any foreign surname suits some masculine declension model and thus model one is pretty universal.
     
  38. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Very interesting indeed... For those of us not familiar with Czech, can you give us some examples of famous people from the Czech Republic whose surnames follow models (2) or (3) (just to get an idea)?

    And since you mentioned surnames, is it possible to guess if someone is Czech or Slovak just by his surname (I'm talking about, "bare" words, because I know that diacritics differ between the two languages)? (to the moderators sorry - I know this is somewhat off-topic, hope you will let it pass)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  39. swintok Senior Member

    English - Canada

    Ukrainian rules regarding surnames can be somewhat complicated.

    If the surname is a straightforward adjectival form (-ський), then there is usually a feminine form (-ська). This is also supposed to be true for non-Ukrainian Slavic surnames, which are in most cases Ukrainianised if this can be done (e.g., Nový becomes Новий; Nová becomes Нова). This does not always happen in practice, however. I have seen Ukrainian official documents issued to foreigners with Ukrainian or Slavic names in which the surname was simply transliterated back into Ukrainian. For example, І. Біла emigrated from Ukraine to Canada, became a Canadian citizen with the surname Bilyy, returned to Ukraine several years later to work, and was issued a work permit by the Ukrainian government under the surname Билйй!

    If the surname derives from a possessive adjectival form (-ів, -ов, -ин, і.т.д.), there may be a feminine form or there may not. Generally speaking, in Central and Eastern Ukraine there will usually be a feminine form, whereas in Western Ukraine it is just as likely that there will not. Hence the wife, daughter, or sister of Панчишин may be Панчишина or may also be Панчишин. The wife, daughter, or sister of Панків may be Панків, Панкова, or even Панківа.

    Other surnames do not have a feminine form (e.g., Шевчук, Кравець, Міненко, Лакуста, etc.). These surnames decline as normal Ukrainian nouns when referring to a man, but do not decline when referring to a woman. In some parts of rural Ukraine and in the Ukrainian communities in North America it is still possible to hear feminine forms of some of these surnames (Шевчучка, Кравчиха, Міненкова, Лакустиха), but this is an archaic form that is now only oral and is almost never recorded in documents.

    Foreign surnames are never feminised. Foreign surnames follow regular Ukrainian surname declention rules. That is, foreign surnames of men for the most part decline as Ukrainian nouns, but foreign surnames of women do not, unless they are the feminine forms of Slavic adjectival-type words. Hence, Bill Clinton (Клінтон, -а, -ові (-у), -а, -ом, -і (-у), -е) declines, but Hillary Clinton does not. However, both Putin and Putina decline.

    One last completely useless piece of trivia is that because of Belarusan orthography rules, Ukrainian surnames ending in -енко are written there as -энка. When these are rendered back into Ukrainian, they remain in their Belarusan form as -енка and are declined for men as feminine nouns, apparently to the annoyance of the President of Belarus when he goes to Ukraine to visit family. :)
     
  40. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    Czech:

    Smutný × Smutná
    Veselý × Veselá
    Tachecí × Tachecí
    Kočí × Kočí (substantivised adjective or vice versa :confused:)
    Krejčí × Krejčí (substantivised adjective or vice versa :confused:)

    Slovak:

    Rýdzi × Rýdza
    Sliacky × Sliacka
    Starší × Staršia
    Slovinský × Slovinská

    Czech:

    Paulů × Paulů
    Petrů × Petrů
    Janů × Janů
    Jirků × Jirků

    Slovak:

    Jakubove × Jakubove
    Jakubovie × Jakubovie
    Šovdoje × Šovdoje or Šovdojeová
    Krnáče × Krnáče or Krnáčeová
    Jurových × Jurových or Jurovýchová
    Jankech × Jankechová or Jankech
    Balažovjech × Balažovjechová or Balažovjech
    Minaroviech × Minaroviechová or Minaroviech

    Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../sjpzeny.rtf+&cd=2&hl=sk&ct=clnk&client=opera

    Older .sk link in English: http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/28570/2/
     
  41. lordwings Junior Member

    Bulgarian
    The surnames in Bulgarian since the end of the 19 century till now, are mostly with ov (male) and ova (female) suffixes. Both of these surnames represent kind of possesion, as well as the other surname forms in bulgarian ski/ska and nin/in (male) na (female) which also represent the same thing in different form.
    The kind of possession varies depending on the surname ending and origins so while ov/ova are used to describe father's job, grandfather's name or epithet, ski/ska would be used for the place the family comes from (Varna - Varnenski/ Varnenska Sofia - Sofiyski/Sofiyska (though in the second case the name would more likely be Sofiyanski/Sofiyanska which presents not exactly the place but citizenship). These suffixes are also used to create new sobriquets so someone coming from Spain , or Bulgarian who have lived in Spain for a while would likely be called Ispanski (Spanish, someone who comes, belongs to spain) the same word is used in regards to Spanish language. Ending in in/nin - na are seldom used now and is old fashioned, this kind of suffix also means strong possessiveness, because this type of names is used until 20 century instead of woman's name after her marriage (when if her husband's name is Ivan, then she has to be called Ivanina, then "bulka" (wife) is often used in addition.) This version of name suffix is also used in word forming but is informal or even considered rural (Yanin/Yanina, Ivanin/Ivanina, Tomin/Tomina). However the "na"(female) suffix along with "en" (for male gender of the word) which are similar to in/na are used in forming adjectives or - with respect to words which are dependent to each other like "vyatarna melnitsa" (windmill) "dyrvena kashta" (wooden house). Phrases ending on in/ina, nin/nina and expressing this kind of possession like "mayčina pregradka" (mother's hug) and "baštin dom" (father's home) are more likely used like idioms so these like "kakina dreha" (grand sister's clothe) "Petina obuvka" (Petya's shoe) are also considered rural and replaced by "dreha na kaka", "obuvka na petya" though they are still used in the dialect forms.
     
  42. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Vianie, thanks very much!
    Can we say that Novotný, Novotná and Šťastný all belong into this category?

    Never heard surnames of this type, how are they pronounced?
     
  43. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  44. ilocas2 Senior Member

    I know person with surname Petrůvová.
     
  45. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    Similarly as in Czechia and Slovakia, though I don't perceive it too derogatorily. It's used just when a name ends in the -ová: Banášová - Banáška, Hegerová - Hegerka etc.

    Just like Paulú and Petrú, with the first syllable accent. Czechs' lips have got a shape of that little circle when pronouncing ů. :)

    I demonstrate that for sure once again in the two simple diagrams:

    1. (on) Peter - Petrov (syn) / Petrova (dcéra)

    2. (ona) Petra - Petrin (syn) / Petrina (dcéra)

    And is the name of her husband or father Petrův? This is anyway an interesting case.
     
  46. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I know a person with the surname Adamuv (in Slovakia) and his wife's surname is Adamuvová. However, this surname seems to be of Polish or Czech origin (from Adamów or Adamův).
     
  47. ilocas2 Senior Member

    I don't know what was her husband's name.
     

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