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All Slavic languages: Novoslovienskij jazyk

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by Maroseika, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    To what extent Novoslovienskij jazyk is understandable for the native speakers of different Slavic languages?

    On my opinion, it looks too much close to Eastern-Slavic. I think so just because I can understand it too well unlike any of the natural Western and Southern Slavic languages. Or maybe this is an evidence of the great success of this new language developers?
     
  2. nonik Senior Member

    czech

    Maroseika.....I talked with the autor of novoslovienski language. He just took Old Church Slavonic language and modernized it. And because Old Church Slavic served as a first written eclestical and official language almost in all the part of slavic world, then all the slavic languges are more or less influenced by ocs. language.
    I read myself vocabulary OCS. language and by my surprise, I understood almost 90% of that. Of course I had problem with grammar, aorist, imperfect etc. and the rest of vocabulary (10%). But at least, one you learn aorist, imperfect and 10% of vocabulary, you recognized that it is very valuable to understand at better level others slavic languages.

    And as a czech language spoken person, Old Slavonic language was choosed or designed to serve as a eclestical language primarily on Great Moravia empire, thus it has suprisingly a lot of czech features. From that point of view, I dont have any big problem to understand its modernized version called novoslovienski.

    If you have a more guestions, please, contact me personnaly by email.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  3. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Thank you for your opinion, Nonik. The only thing I was wondering to know so far is to what extent this language is intelligible to different representatives of Slavs. As far as I understood, acknowlege of the OSL helped you with Novoslovenskij pretty much. But what if you knew only your native Czech?
    Russian language, as far as I know, obtained more from OSL than any other Slavic language, and obviosly that is why Novoslovenskij is so clear for me. That is why my title question.
     
  4. nonik Senior Member

    czech

    As far as I understood, acknowlege of the OSL helped you with Novoslovenskij pretty much. But what if you knew only your native Czech?.................................................................................................No, you dont understand what I said, I started learn OCS because of Novoslovienski, and I understood novoslovienski very well before any previous knowledge of OCS.

    I started learn OCS after I came in contact with NS, because I wanted to know how much similar is OCS vocabulary and grammar to nowadays czech language.

    For normal czech person is NS much more better understandable than any others modern slavic languages, propably because what I wrote in previous post.
     
  5. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    This is now the first time I encounter this language. Apart from my native Serbian, I know some Russian and I have no knowledge of Old Church Slavonic. I understand written text maybe more than 90%. I also understand it better than many other Slavic languages that exist.
    I have also seen few videos on youtube and I understand almost everything. It sounds to me as a broken Serbian, spoken by a Czech person.
     
  6. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    Novoslovienskij is reasonably understandable to me. I regard it as one of only two "options" available today as a "real" panslavic language - the other being what is called either Slovianski or Medžuslovjanski.

    Novoslovienskij and Slovianski are both so-called "InterSlavic" languages - which are based upon real Slavic languages - although Novoslovienskij uses the Old Church Slavonic for many of its "base" forms, whereas, Slovianski uses only contemporary spoken Slavic languages.

    Slovianski is the "official" language of at least two Slavic web forums (which I do not think I can post here, because of the rules of this forum).

    Novoslovienskij attracts primarily people who like the idea of using the Old Church Slavonic language in a more modernized form. Its vocabulary, however, is not as well understandable to all Slavic speakers, unless they have studied OCS or are familiar with it from the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church. East Slavic speakers, however - which includes Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians - usually can understand most Novoslovienskij word-forms, because OCS has been a part of Russian education for so long.

    Another constructed language which declares itself to be a panslavic language is "Slovio" - which is based upon the structure of Esperanto. There are, however, very few followers of Slovio today in comparison to Novoslovienskij and Slovianski - probably because Slovio has so many word-forms which are not based on Slavic languages, but are "neologisms" created to be simplifications of real Slavic words and function more similarly to Esperanto (IMO).

    Currently, Slovianski is being used successfully by several law firms in western and southern Slavic countries as a "lingua franca" for legal documents and contracts (instead of using English). The choice for using Slovianski was, I understand, because Slovianski uses only modern Slavic languages for its "base" vocabulary.

    If you would like to see an example of the vocabulary of these Interslavic languages, there is an "Interslavic" lexicon available, which contains both Slovianski and Novoslovienskij word forms (as well as some Slovio forms). It can be reached at www.Interslavic.com

    :)
     
  7. Maroseika Moderator

    Moscow
    Russian
    Thank you, Разведчик Небес, you answered my question and supported my guess of better understanding of Novoslovienskij by the Eastern Slavs. By the way, what's your mainly studied Slavic language?
     
  8. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    Actually, I dont agree with opinion, that east slavic spoken person will understand more novoslovienski than west slavic.
    OCS and then NS vocabulary is suprisingly very understandable for czech people and my first opinion about novoslovienski was that it cant work for east and south slavs, because it look to much similar to czech language.
     
  9. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    East Slavic perspective:



    West Slavic perspective:

    And to quote myself for another South Slavic perspective:



    It's magic! :D

    One thing I don't remember having seen is what Bulgarians and Macedonians think, because of the case system issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  10. ilocas2 Senior Member

    I showed this language to some people and I would say that this language was understandable for them around 85 % in written form and 90-95 % in spoken form. They also said, that it's crap and boring and it's not interesting to them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  11. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member


    That sounds a lot like what a Bulgarian member of WR and a dear friend of mine thinks about English. :D

    What you are talking about ilocas2, is subjective perception, which is a different topic. However, since you have brought it up, I do seem to notice a pattern emerging here:

    - Western Slavs (with some exceptions) and some South Slavs seem to be radically pro-English (perhaps because of earlier Germanization and Russification of their languages they see English as the least threatening?) and thus might be anti-InterSlavic
    - Eastern Slavs and the remainder of South Slavs are either neutral or anti-English and thus might be pro-InterSlavic or pro-Slavic in general

    How much of what your friends say is influenced by historical, political and economic considerations?

    p.s.
    I know this is off-topic, but I think this definitely merits a public discussion (not via PMs), at least in Culture Café. We seem to keep bumping heads regarding this issue of Slavic mutual communication.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  12. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    I did some research, and this one I found on some language forum. You can see how people reacted on novoslovienski language.
    Seems to me that bulgarian spoken person understand it, but also he propably understand serbian language, which propably help him to understand novoslovienski.


    Novoslovienskij........ Alo li dobro znaju, Staroslovienski jazyk jest podobnij Latvijskemu i Litvanskemu jazyku. I interesno jest, že tuty dva jazyka (Lat i Lit) ot sebe imajut veliku roz‘liku i Slovienskij jest jako by meždu nima.
    2. Modernij Bulgarskij jazyk jest synteza jazyka starih slovienov iz Bulgarii i severnej Grecii s indo-europskim jazykom Trakijskim, jazykom aziatskih Bulgarov, jazykom Grekskim i jazykom Tureckim.

    Russian......Як то може бити? Я не знам о Тракийском, але яка связьба меджу Современним Булгарским и азиатским Булгарским (Чувашским?)?

    Novoslovienskij.......detaily ne znaju, no jest to informacia ot mojih bulgarskih priatelov profesorov iz Trakijskego univerziteta, kdieže jesm byl v Novembru prošle leto na konferencii. Imaju takože jednu bulgrasku knigu na temu "drevneb‘lgarska pisemnost" v b‘lgarskem jazyku.


    Vojta what language you write? It resembles Bulgarian very much, and I can understand everything!


    Serbian.......Već sam tu jednom napisao da je Vojta svoj rad bazirao na Staroslavenskom jeziku. Taj jezik su Ćiril i Metod naučili od Bugara u Solunu a proširili ga na Moravu i sav ostali Slavenski svijet. Jedino ih je smrt u tome spriječila da taj svoj posao završe do kraja ali i ovako su umnogom uspjeli. Inače, da jesu danas bismo svi govorili Bugarski. Zato je sasvim logično što ti tako dobro razumiješ Novoslovienski.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  13. ilocas2 Senior Member

    I showed it only to three people as late as today afternoon, not my friends, sorry for misleading, but I sincerely think that the reaction would be similar in 90 % of people.

    I meant that it seemed to them just useless, unworthful to deal with it, uninteresting, boring, etc., not ugly or disgusting.

    To say the truth, I can't recall that I ever in my life talked with anybody about Slavs, about the fact that Czech is Slavic language, that Czechs are Slavs etc. Not in the school, not in family, not between friends, I don't know, maybe few times but it really had to be only few times, because I can't remember it. It just never was an issue. We often talked about foreign countries including Slavic countries and foreign nations including Slavic nations, but we just were taking them separately, the words "Slované, slovanský etc." weren't mentioned at all. I don't know why it is so, but that's the way it is.

    Sometimes there are internet discussions under news articles regarding Poland, Russia, Serbia etc. where some posts in the discussion are about if Czechs are Slavs and similar things, of course there are also for example blog articles, where people express their thoughts about Slavic things but as I said, I personally can't remember to hear the people talking about it. I just think that Czechs are less interested in these Slavic issues than others.

    The only other Slavic country where I have been was Croatia, through Slovenia and Slovakia I only passed without stop, but in the time when I was there, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it's a Slavic country, it was for me just like any foreign country, today it would be probably different, because I'm already quite influenced by this forum.

    I also must say that before I joined in this forum, I didn't know that Slavic languages are so similar to each other, it almost scaried me, when I realized it, I studied formerly only English, Romance languages and bit of German, I started to interest about Slavic things as late as in the last summer and before it I had little contact with other Slavic languages.

    To say it briefly: I really think that Czechs belong to the least pro-Slavic Slavic nations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  14. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    I would like to note that both Novoslovienskij ("NS") and Slovianski ("SVI") are both excellent auxiliary panslavic languages. Each of them has its own positive (& negative) elements.

    My preference is that these two "Auxlangs" merge their best qualities.
    Of course, who is to say what are the best elements for merger? (there is no "one authority").

    Ultimately, it will be the users themselves who determine how "our" Panslavic language will evolve. Most likely, it will include elements of both NS and SVI - (as well as elements of Slovio) and will become a true Interslavic Language - Medžuslovjanski Jezyk
    _____________________________________________________________
    In response to Maroseika's question: "...what's your mainly studied Slavic language?"
    -Russian > main studied Slavic language
    -Polish > native Slavic language
    -French > native Romance Language
    -English > native Germanic Language
    :)
     
  15. Gvozdansko

    Gvozdansko New Member

    Croatian
    As a native speaker of Croatian language I understand everything in this constructed language. Maybe not every single word (and even that is rare) but as a whole everything is understandable easily. It is even more understandable to me than Slovenian language and Croats often go on Slovenian forums and debate with Slovenes, each on its language. I just think that this language should get rid of so many unnecessary Latin and Greek terms and replace them with Slavic versions, it would be nicer.
     
  16. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    I am in favour of having vocabulary "options".
    The INTERSLAVIC LEXICON offers 5 different LEVELS of word-forms:

    LEVEL 1 = Primary Words - which are either:
    • (a) common to most all of the natural Slavic languages or
    • (b) recognised/understood by their speakers
    Example:
    EACH = každy or vsjaki
    TO DOWNLOAD = daunlodovati (imperf) daunloditi (perf) dostyvati (imperf) / dostati (perf)​

    LEVEL 2 = Secondary Words - which are NOT common to all or most natural Slavic languages; perhaps only one or two or three.
    Example:
    KNOWLEDGE = veda - vedenje - vednost' * (versus Level 1 = znanje - znalost')
    * - these are Western Slavic word-forms
    WILD = "diki" (Bu, Pl, Ru, Ua) - "divy" (Bg, Hr, Mk, Sl, Sr) - "divoki" (cz, sk)

    LEVEL 3 = Constructed Words ("Neologisms") - to substitute or represent words:
    • (a) when they do not exist universally among the natural Slavic languages, or
    • (b) to increase understandability for either or both Slavic speakers or non-Slavic speakers.
    Example:
    WILD = "dikvy" (combination of "diki" and "divy" )
    DICTIONARY = "slovkniga"
    CITY = "velgrad" (from "veliki grad")
    VILLAGE = "malgrad" (from "maly grad")
    TO BURY = "podzemleti"
    HARDLY = "ljedva" (combination of "ledva" (Western Slavic) & "jedva" (Eastern & Southern Slavic)

    LEVEL 4 = Legal Words - for use primarily in legal and financial contracts and documents.

    LEVEL 5 = Foreign Words - Latin, French, English, Greek, etc. etc. -based word forms
    _______________________________________
    As of the date this of this post, Novoslovienskij does not have an online lexicon or dictionary.
    It does offer a Czech - Novoslovienskij / Novoslovienskij - Czech offline dictionary HERE.

    :idea:
    :idea:
     
  17. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    Guys,
    just small info.

    1200 words are same or very similar in the way of the meaning between all slavic languages (you have 12 of them).

    If you take just one language away, we have 2000 words.

    and there arent even count words with preffixes and suffixes.

    If you know these words, you are able to comunicate on good basic level.

    Just imagine, how you learn english, from simplifying books, started on 600 words and ending on 4 000 words.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  18. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Not just West Slavic but also Slovenian -- the vedeti / znati isogloss passes through Slovenia.
     
  19. nonik Senior Member

    czech

    there are propably known in all the slavic languages, the word veda is even in sanskrit.
    very close to word viděti

    word divý is also czech word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  20. Gvozdansko

    Gvozdansko New Member

    Croatian
    Vedeti is a common indoeuropean word (*weyd - to know). In Croatian this word is preserved in a word pripovijedati which means to tell somebody a story or a tale, or to talk about something to someone. It is composed of pri + povijest and povijest is made of po + vijest and vijest is derived from věstь, i.e. vědě - to know. I assume that similar examples can be found in every Slavic language.
     
  21. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Right, but the modern-day isogloss of the verb vedeti (and the nouns veda, vedenje, and vednost) passes through Slovenia; the words are not, as far as I know, found in other standard South Slavic languages. Only a few remnants, such as the one mentioned by Gvozdansko, still exist south of Slovenia.

    Due to the location of the isogloss, vedeti is also absent from some Slovenian dialects, having been replaced by znati (which has a narrower meaning in standard Slovenian).
     
  22. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    For a Panslavic language, the Primary Word should be understood by all - or most all - of the speakers of the natural Slavic languages. In the case of "knowledge", I think that only "znanje/znanie" meets this test.

    While there may be examples of "ved-" in all of the natural Slavic languages, I do not believe "veda" "vednost'" etc. would automatically be understood to mean "knowledge".

    I think that only Polish preserves the "ved-" form as "knowledge".
    In Czech and Slovak "veda" means "science" most of the time (please correct me if I am wrong).

    In Russian - "ве́дать" obviously derives from the original IE word-form - however, today it carries a meaning of more of "to manage" or "to be in charge of" - although it can mean "to know" also. But Russian primarily uses the "zna-" form.

    For your information, I have collected the various Slavic words for "knowledge" (if any are wrong, please let us know):

    • Interslavic Lexicon - znalost', znanje; veda, vednost'
    • Русский - знания
    • Українська - знання
    • Беларуская - веды
    • Polski - wiedza, wiadomość,
    • Čeština - vědomost, vědomosti, vědění, poznání
    • Slovenčina - vedomosť, vedomosti, veda, poznanie
    • Slovenščina - znanje, vedenje, vednost
    • Hrvatski - znanja, razumjevanje
    • Cрпски - знање
    • Македонски - знаење, познавање
    • Български - знания, познания
    • Slovio - znanie
    • Novoslovienskij - izpravienie, poznanie, znanie
    • Slovianski - znanje
    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  23. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    In Slovenian, vedenje means "knowledge about", while vednost means "knowledge of" in the sense of "awareness". Znanje, whose meaning is broader, can replace vedenje in most contexts, even though the verb znati cannot replace the verb vedeti.

    Veda refers to a field of science.
     
  24. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    In Slovenian? Yes?
    (e.g. in Polish, "veda" ~ "wiedza" is always "knowledge" --- "science" is "nauka" )
     
  25. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Yes.
     
  26. glupson Junior Member

    Bosnian - Bosnia-Herzegovina
    I just discovered the Novoslovienskij Jazyk , thanks to Wordreference forum - great! I understand 99% of it.
     
  27. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    I've heard ''ne vem'' (for I don't know) but I can't say whether it's Slovenian or Kajkavian. :confused: I can't remember.
     
  28. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
  29. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    It's Slovenian. It may also be present in some Kajkavian subdialects, although the Slovenian dialects that are directly transitional to Kajkavian tend to use znati instead. A map with showing this vedeti/znati isogloss would be interesting, but I've yet to see it.
     
  30. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Mod note: Some recent posts dealing with the development of modern Slavic languages and their relationship to common Slavic have been moved HERE.
     
  31. Mirzoska New Member

    Bosanski
    Hello, I am new at this forum, just accidantly stumbled upon it while looking google for some info on slav languages. First of all I want to thank to forum member nonik who sent me a link containing web newspaper written in Novoslovienskij jazyk. I searched youtube and found interwiev with profesor Merunkoj, and i had no problem at all understunding his 15 min. interwiev.What amazed me is that i see all you speakers of western or eastern slavic languages being able to understand it. When saying this i have in mind primarlly Western slavs, i tought this interwiev will be more eassily understud by south and east slavic speakers. As DenisBiH has had said it
    I complletly agree with him, this is exactlly what i had felt.
    It would really be great if there is some Study book, with 20 or so lessons filled with dialogs, short articles, short grammar explanations so we could read it in form of dialogs. I am finding haveing hard time finding compleet vocabullary list for Novoslovienskij on its officail google page. If some of you dear frieends would be kind enough to show me where i can find these word lists for Novosloviensij jazyik i woul be really greatfull to you.
     
  32. Mirzoska New Member

    Bosanski
    I have found dictionary for Slovianski, i wonder how much is Slovianski dictionary different fron Novoslovienskij? Or they are basicly the same in that area (words)?
     
  33. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    This topic should really be transfered to a new heading called "INTERLSLAVIC" - because the so-called "Auxiliary Slavic languages" known as "Novoslovienskij" and "Slovianski" (and the more simpler, esperanto-like "Slovianto") have joined under the common moniker/banner of "INTERSLAVIC" or "MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI" in the last several months.

    Both "Auxlangs" now use a common "Lexicon" called the "Interslavic Lexicon", which can be found at http://www.interslavic.com.

    There are some differences between Novosolovienskij and Slovianski - mainly in their orthography.
    Novoslovienskij was originally intended to be based upon Old Church Slavonic ("OCS")- as an updated, modernised version of it - with a noticeable flavouring of Czech word-forms, the native language of its creator.
    Slovianski is based upon the commonalities of all spoken, major, modern Slavic languages - and was assembled since 2006 by a collaborative effort of speakers from all Slavic language, rather than just one country.
    Since the two languages have "joined" together under the banner of "Interslavic / Medžuslovjanski", Novoslovienskij has automatically expanded its vocabulary to include words that are more fully recognisable by all Slavic speakers, and not just those who are familiar with OCS or Czech.

    Of the two, Slovianski is the older tongue, created in 2006.
    Novoslovienskij was introduced in 2010.
    As noted above, both use the Interslavic Lexicon as their primary vocabluary source, however, because of its earlier creation, the orthography of Slovianski is used (the differences are minor: Slovianski masculine adjectives end in "-y or -i" where Novoslovienskij's end in "-ij";
    Novoslovienskij will use "-ie-" combinations, where Slovianski will only use "-e-" > e.g. "WHITE" = "BELY" in Slovianski and "BIELIJ" in Novoslovienski.

    Grammatically, both Auxlangs are very similar - however, Novoslovienskij includes declension and conjugation forms from Old Church Slavonic, which today are used only in the some of the Southern Slavic languages - e.g. "dual" and "aorist" cases.

    The orthography and rules of Novoslovienskij may be found at: http://www.novoslovienskij.org. It is written in Novoslovienskij.
    The orthography and rules of Slovianski may be found at: http://www.slovianski.com.* It is written in English.
    The orthography and rules of Slovianto (the more simpler, esperanto-like form of Interslavic) may be found at: http://www.slovianto.org. It is written in English.

    * - the Slovianski website also includes automatic declension and verb conjugation engines and two "transcription engines" to convert Cyrillic text to Latin text and vice versa (in the several different varieties of them: Serbia, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.)

    Slovianski's forum may be found at: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/index/
    Novoslovienkij does not have a formal forum, but does have a posting chat group at Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/neoslavonic
    The two Auxlangs together have a posting group at Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/interslavic/

    Both Slovianski and Novoslovienskij post relevant news and human interest articles at http://www.izviestija.info

    Currently,Interslavic is being used primarily as an online communication medium - although, several law firms in four (4) different Slavic countries (Croatia, Czech Republic, Poland and Serbia) have been using the Slovianski version of Interslavic now for two years (since 2009) for legal contracts and financial documentation for their clients who conduct business between different Slavic speaking language countries
    (in the past, such contracts were prepared in the two different Slavic languages and English as well; today, these contracts are still prepared in the two Slavic languages, but Interslavic is substituted for English).

    I hope this answers your question and offers some clarity about these contempoary Panslavic Languages.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  34. Mirzoska New Member

    Bosanski
    Thank you all for answering :)
     
  35. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Well, it is a problem, not so much in understanding the language but in producing it.

    Cases after prepositions are not an obstacle to intelligibility, but when there is no preposition, the meaning might be obscured. Here's a list (in increasing order of difficulty) of where the meaning is hard to understand, because there is no preposition.

    Expressing the possessor (Genitive)
    Expressing the indirect object (Dative)
    Expressing the instrument of an action (Instrumental)

    I think all of the above can be substituted with an appropriate preposition: ot or iz for Genitive, k for Dative and s for Instrumental.

    If they want to make a language that is equally easy to understand and produce for ALL Slavic speakers, then they have to get rid of the declension, otherwise Bulgarians and Macedonians are kind of left out. It's just too much to ask of people whose native language doesn't have cases to learn to use a system of six cases. Such a language doesn't fare very well compared to English.

    I know that without the cases the language will seem broken to other Slavic speakers but some people have already said that it does seem broken, so I don't think that the lack of cases will be a problem for them.

    Personally, I understand over 90% of the language, but I don't have problems with cases.
     
  36. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    for bulgars and macedonian with minimum cases .........it is already done. I wont post links, but you can find it on ( 9th October 2011 11:03 PM Sky-Scout ) under name of Slovianto.


    I am not sure, but completely without cases is maybe Slovio from Mark Hučko.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2011
  37. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Slovianto is too simplified, to the point that might actually be bad for intelligibility. "I cela zemja imala jedin jezik" sounds better than "I cele zemja imal jedin jezik".

    Novoslovienskij would seem perfect without the cases.

    Here's an example of the difficulty a native Bulgarian speaker might have (from the Novoslovienskij's webpage):

    "Prošu Vas, da byste jego čitali i poslali drugom svojim, jako li oni hočut to vidieti."

    First I thought that was an instance of the instrumental case, because of the characteristic -om ending for masculine nouns, and the -im ending for masculine adjectives. It didn't make any sense to me. Then I read the plural pronoun "oni" and remembered that in Old Church Slavonic -omь was an instrumental ending for singular masculine nouns and -omъ was a dative ending for plural nouns and I realized that "drugom svojim" actually means "to your own friends".

    Needless to say that an average Bulgarian speaker wouldn't have figured it out and the above sentence would be 50% unintelligible to them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2011
  38. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    I would also struggle to understand this properly. The last thing that would come to my mind is that drugom is actually dative plural of drug. Although the second part of the sentence indicates to exactly that. It simply doesn't sound to me as plural.
    If the sentence was: "Da byste jego čitali i poslali drugom,..." then it would make a perfect sense, cause drugom would mean here "to someone else".
     
  39. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    You have given a very good example of why - in our panslavic word-form choices - we must be careful.
    One of the goals of our Interslavic Lexicon / Medžslovjanski leksikon, is to suggest words that will be best understood by a majority of Slavic speakers.
    We do this by categorising words in "LEVELS" - where Level 1 is intended to be the primary word-form for maximum understanding. Level 2 is intended to have limited understanding - usually by just 2 or 3 groups of slavic speakers.

    Thus, for "friend", the Interslavic Lexicon shows the following @ http://dict.slovioski.com/index.jsp?input=both&word=friend&type=exact:

    English Interslavic Explanation T L C
    friend drug n 2 i
    friend družnica female nf 1 i
    friend družnec male nm 1 i
    friend prijatel' nm 1




    "drug" is shown as Level 2 - whereas "družnica" and "družnec" are shown as level 1, because their meanings are more self-evident (although, there is still controversy as to whether these should be displayed at all).
    However, the LEVEL 1 word for "friend" is " prijatel' ", which is most universally understood among Slavic speakers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2011
  40. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    Word drug/друг exists in BCMS language and in Eastern Slavic languages as well. In Western group there is druh, so I guess it would be more or less obvious. The problem which I see here is the declension. For dative plural, we have suffix -ima and -ama, and in Eastern group it is -ам/-ям. Now I see that -om is specific for Western group, at least for Polish. So like I already said, suffix -om to me doesn't sound as if it can be plural. And what increases the confusion even more here is the adjective drugi (other). The adjectival suffix for dative and locative singular in BCMS is -om. In Russian it is -ому and -ом. This is why the part "poslati drugom" I can only understand as "send to other/someone else", and not as "send to friends" which was intended.
     
  41. polskajason Junior Member

    English - American
    A lot of declensions and conjugations are confusing from one Slavic language to another.

    In BCS, "Jasonovi" means "Jason's" (possessive). In Polish, Jasonowi is Dative for Jason, and the Dative can not indicate possession like it can in BCS (that's exclusively done using the Genitive in Polish).

    Russian verb endings sound mixed up to someone who speaks a Western or Southern Slavic language.

    Pisat' in Russian is like pisac' in Polish or pisati in BCS, but:
    Russian: ja pišu
    BCS: oni pišu
    but
    Russian: my pišem
    BCS: ja pišem

    Somewhat unrelatedly, don't get me started about "no" meaning "yeah" in Polish... :confused:
     
  42. nonik Senior Member

    czech
    I looked at the page where is novoslovienski grammar, and according to grammar suppose to be... DRUGAM
    ................because plural dativ is ...bratam,hlebam
    "Prošu Vas, da byste jego čitali i poslali DRUGAM SVOJIM, jako li oni hočut to vidieti."

    propably the mistake occurred.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  43. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    Good to know this, thank you for checking it. It now sounds much better.
     
  44. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    Some of them are mixed up indeed, but after a little practice it becomes normal.

    Modal verbs htjeti/хотеть and moći/мочь are same in first person:
    Russian: я хочу, я могу
    BCS: ja hoću, ja mogu
     
  45. glupson Junior Member

    Bosnian - Bosnia-Herzegovina
    The project of Novoslovienskih jazyk stil exists?
     
  46. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    Yes.
    The Novosloviensky Project (now called "Neoslavonic") can be found at:

    http://www.neoslavonic.org/

    The parallel project called "Medžuslovjanski" or "Interslavic" may be found at:

    http://www.interslavic.net or http://www.medzuslovjanski.com

    The Lexicon used by both NeoSlavonic and InterSlavic may be found at:

    http://dict.interslavic.com

    (additional LINKS may be found at the Lexicon)

    Finally, there are these following forums available for both Interslavic and NeoSlavonic:

    Zetaboard INTERSLAVIC / MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI FORUM: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/index/

    Facebook INTERSLAVIC FORUM: https://www.facebook.com/groups/interslavic/

    Facebook NEOSLAVONIC FORUM: https://www.facebook.com/groups/neoslavonic/
     
  47. willem81 Senior Member

    Russia
    Russian
    That is quite interesting. So there are indeed attempts of promoting the Slavic lingua franca, which is somewhat similar to the Danish linguists' attempt of creating a common Scandinavian language once. The latter, as I have heard, did not achieve any success and the project was suspended or forgotten. But the idea of the common Slavic language seems very attractive to me.
     
  48. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    I did NOT know about the attempt to achieve a common Scandinavian language. Is there any information available about that project online?
    I have been using Interslavic now for several years in my communications with Slavic-speaking people in my company (we have offices in Prague, Warsaw, Zagreb and Belgrade) (we are lawyers). For several years now we have prepared legal contracts in a "version" of Interslavic - when the parties are from two different Slavic-speaking countries. Although not "official" - because Interslavic has not been officially accepted as a recognised language for legal contracts, it nonetheless bridges - t.j. "unites" - the parties to a better mutual understanding.
     
  49. willem81 Senior Member

    Russia
    Russian
    The information about that project can be found in the following thread:
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=691110

    from the post number 3 and further on.
     
  50. SkyScout

    SkyScout Junior Member

    US
    Polish French English-US
    I find it interesting to read that the first corpus planning for the Inter-Scandinavian language was to reduce "...at least some of the differences concerning orthography..." between the languages.
    (from http://ancilla.unice.fr/~brunet/pub/ulla.html )


    In the ongoing efforts of the Interslavic team, we found orthography to be most significant.
    Once we finally agreed upon a common orthography, we discovered that the level of understanding of our respective native word-forms to those of our brothers' forms increased dramatically when we transformed them both to the Interslavic orthography.


    One of the most amazing exercises was to transliterate a Polish sentence into Interslavic orthography. Suddenly, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians and Croatians' levels of understanding from the orthography change increased perhaps 60% - i.e./t.j. - without translation, just transliteration.


    Here is the link to the Slavic Language TRANSLITERATOR: http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/transliterator_extended.html
     

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